Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
Double the current median net worth of US households? Sounds like a starting point.
Negotiate it then. What number do you think is appropriate?
Not interested in negotiating it because I don’t think it is a good solution, and there are too many ways to calculate it. Are we saying the “damage” is unjust enrichment for slavery, aggregate enrichment since slavey, economic harm caused to slaves, or aggregate harm to slaves and their descendants, aggregate harm to all black Americans ever, etc.
What amount of money would you accept to go back and restart your life as a black man?
How do you even pick a reasonable number? My feel is that the number would be over 1 million per person to compensate, on average, the delta of opportunity.
But I don’t think that is the best way to address the problem. So why focus on it?
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Not interested in negotiating it because I don’t think it is a good solution, and there are too many ways to calculate it. Are we saying the “damage” is unjust enrichment for slavery, aggregate enrichment since slavey, economic harm caused to slaves, or aggregate harm to slaves and their descendants, aggregate harm to all black Americans ever, etc.
What amount of money would you accept to go back and restart your life as a black man?
How do you even pick a reasonable number? My feel is that the number would be over 1 million per person to compensate, on average, the delta of opportunity.
But I don’t think that is the best way to address the problem. So why focus on it?
I'm exposing the argument for systemic racism to what it really is: wealth redistribution and class warfare drizzled with racism to make opponents fearful of objection.
If you agree that de jure segregation and discrimination based on race is illegal in the United States, and that systemic racism would not exist if economic fortunes of black Americans were equal overall to white Americans, then systemic racism is not an opportunity argument, it's an outcome argument, ie redistribution.
Economic inequality is THE fundamental pillar of the argument of systemic racism. Acknowledging that reparations would cure the ailment exposes the systemic racism claim for what it ACTUALLY is: a call towards redistribution of wealth, ie outcomes.
Your own solution to the problem is economic redistribution from wealthy areas to poorer areas. However, according to the theory of systemic racism, there's a white person in the poor area who will be better able to take advantage of the new services than the black neighbors. So it won't fix anything at all, but instead perpetuate systemic racism.
Your hypothetical to me is a non-sequitur, but I'm glad you agree there's monetary value. The answer is that I'd go back and restart for free in any color you desire.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
You are creating a strawman argument. That is all.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You are creating a strawman argument. That is all.
You can’t agree that my solution (reparations) to your problem is viable and then call it a strawman. Just google “institutional racism” and “reparations” to see what pops up.
Economic advantage is the heart and soul of your case for systemic racism
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
You can’t agree that my solution (reparations) to your problem is viable and then call it a strawman. Just google “institutional racism” and “reparations” to see what pops up.
Economic advantage is the heart and soul of your case for systemic racism
No, it actually isn’t. Economics is a powerful multiplier of the harm caused by systemic racism, but this isn’t a problem that you can solve through reparations.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
No, it actually isn’t. Economics is a powerful multiplier of the harm caused by systemic racism, but this isn’t a problem that you can solve through reparations.
That’s not what you all have been saying this whole thread.
From JLs article in the first post:
SYSTEMIC RACISM INCLUDES THE COMPLEX ARRAY OF ANTIBLACK PRACTICES, THE UNJUSTLY GAINED POLITICAL-ECONOMIC POWER OF WHITES, THE CONTINUING ECONOMIC AND OTHER RESOURCE INEQUALITIES ALONG RACIAL LINES, AND THE WHITE RACIST IDEOLOGIES AND ATTITUDES CREATED TO MAINTAIN AND RATIONALIZE WHITE PRIVILEGE AND POWER.
I didn’t put it in all caps, FYI.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
That’s not what you all have been saying this whole thread.
From JLs article in the first post:
SYSTEMIC RACISM INCLUDES THE COMPLEX ARRAY OF ANTIBLACK PRACTICES, THE UNJUSTLY GAINED POLITICAL-ECONOMIC POWER OF WHITES, THE CONTINUING ECONOMIC AND OTHER RESOURCE INEQUALITIES ALONG RACIAL LINES, AND THE WHITE RACIST IDEOLOGIES AND ATTITUDES CREATED TO MAINTAIN AND RATIONALIZE WHITE PRIVILEGE AND POWER.
I didn’t put it in all caps, FYI.
And you just tried to reduce ALL OF THAT to economics. It is a power dynamic too.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
And you just tried to reduce ALL OF THAT to economics. It is a power dynamic too.
Wealth correlating to power isn’t much of a leap.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
Wealth correlating to power isn’t much of a leap.
Yeah, but not at 1 million dollars a person.
I think I had also mentioned efforts at inclusion (including in employment and education) as being part of the solution in my earlier post. Didn’t mention it in my more recent one.
But I had talked about the fact that the much more pragmatic and fair approach involves such steps that generate opportunities rather than a cash payoff.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Yeah, but not at 1 million dollars a person.
I think I had also mentioned efforts at inclusion (including in employment and education) as being part of the solution in my earlier post. Didn’t mention it in my more recent one.
But I had talked about the fact that the much more pragmatic and fair approach involves such steps that generate opportunities rather than a cash payoff.
I’d like to see a specific framework of some kind. Sounds similar to things we already have such as affirmative action and workforce investment act.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Interesting. I'm off the grid more or less the next week, but Banjo, you've made a logical blunder in equating improved opportunity to equal opportunity. I don't think you can defend that.
I also think you've made some unjustified leaps to "this is about unequal outcomes".
I can't respond approximately, so I'll just read and get back when I can.
These discussions are beneficial.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Interesting. I'm off the grid more or less the next week, but Banjo, you've made a logical blunder in equating improved opportunity to equal opportunity. I don't think you can defend that.
I also think you've made some unjustified leaps to "this is about unequal outcomes".
I can't respond approximately, so I'll just read and get back when I can.
These discussions are beneficial.
I appreciate the response.
I have made no such equation. I am speaking in the context of legal framework. Opportunity is equal or not. I am asserting that all have equal opportunity under the law. There can be no improvement to this kind of opportunity beyond equality. Some are not more equal than others. Yes, a person in Dallas may have more employment opportunities than someone in Detroit, but in a free state, they are also free to move as needed to take advantage of them.
I suspect your definition of improved opportunity is actually an outcome. Example: Affirmative action is an outcome. Normally, all have the legal right to apply and not face discrimination in a selection process. Affirmative action policies do not affect this opportunity. They intend to provide a favorable *selection* to a minority group beyond the opportunity of consideration.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Trump certainly benefits from racism.
Care to explain? Seems to me Trump is trying to create jobs, put people to work, and benefit all Americans. If allowed, it would probably work.
Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he's our fool
If they think they're better than him they're wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that's where I made this song
We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We're too dumb to make it in no Northern town
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
stodgdog
Care to explain? Seems to me Trump is trying to create jobs, put people to work, and benefit all Americans. If allowed, it would probably work.
Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he's our fool
If they think they're better than him they're wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that's where I made this song
We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We're too dumb to make it in no Northern town
Not sure Randy Newman is your best advocate here, but don't forget the best line in that song: college men from LSU, went in dumb come out dumb too!
🤣
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
But I had talked about the fact that the much more pragmatic and fair approach involves such steps that generate opportunities rather than a cash payoff.
Fair to a black person, but unfair to a down trodden person with a different color skin. Right? Sounds like a great plan. Yeah, Jesse and Al types all over the country will love your plan. This plan will never be enough. Sound familiar? It's what the government has been doing since LBJ.
