Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What does “basically flat lining” mean? It went from 20% to 25% in the 10 years prior to 1965 - a growth rate of 25% during that time. In what world is that “basically flat”?
In the world where it goes from 25% to over 70% over the next 30 years.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
In the world where it goes from 25% to over 70% over the next 30 years.
Almost if poverty has a compounding effect similar to compounding interest?
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
How does the culture encourage people to have more children and sooner? By what specific source of influence?
I can't explain it. It is a norm among poor whites, blacks and hispanics. Do your own research.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
I can't explain it. It is a norm among poor whites, blacks and hispanics. Do your own research.
The rate of increase was positive prior to 1965 for whites and then slows in 1965 and then takes off again right before 1975.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
So what do you think is causing the fatherless homes?
Lack of and distain of Judea/Christian principles and morals as well as family values, Biblical knowledge and faith. And an attitude "if it feels good do it" which leads to sexual activity when in their teens as well as other crimes such as thievery and murder of their own kind. It all begins here. Add to this a culture of this behavior in question going back maybe even 1,000's of years.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Lack of and distain of Judea/Christian principles and morals as well as family values, Biblical knowledge and faith. And an attitude "if it feels good do it" which leads to sexual activity when in their teens as well as other crimes such as thievery and murder of their own kind. It all begins here. Add to this a culture of this behavior in question going back maybe even 1,000's of years.
Unlikely.
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/...-of-the-babies
“Since the birth rate of individualistic secular people the world over is way below replacement level (2.1 in the West), and the birth rate of religious fundamentalists is way above (between 5 and 7.5 depending on sect), then through the sheer force of demography religious fundamentalism is going to become a much bigger force in the world and gain considerable political muscle.”
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
I haven't kept up with this thread, sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
The bolded section is where I got the term "improved opportunity". With that statement, I agree. You then used the phrase equality of opportunity. The first bolded portion is not the same as the second bolded portion.
All races have equal opportunity in this country. It is binary. If your claim is that equality of opportunity is unequal, then a solution should be presented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I would love to read your argument that equality of opportunity is not hindered by prior injustice. I work in wealth creation and preservation and I can tell you that a 350 year pause on wealth creation has exponential effects. Einstein said it best, "compounding interest is the most powerful force in the universe". Lack of wealth leads to lack of influence. Lack of influence leads to lack of education. Lack of education leads to lack of opportunity (or diminished opportunity).
Sure, under the law, the opportunity may technically be equal (like Plessy vs. Furgeson), but the issue is whether or not the opportunity is ACTUALLY equal.
You are espousing Equality of Opportunity for Welfare. The arguments you are making cannot be applied to a race without also being applied to those with lower intelligence, disabilities, sex, etc. I encourage you to peruse the following: https://edeq.stanford.edu/sections/e...y-introduction . It is related to the educational field, but I think you'll find the concepts equally applicable elsewhere. The question is which definition of opportunity you feel is correct, and we can be ideologically consistent about effects and solutions.
As someone who values quantifiable data, I agree with a classical definition of opportunity that can be measured as individual vs. goals vs. obstacles. Equal opportunity in this sense is unable to exist in name only. Opportunity is the realm of the possible (present and future). Prior injustice cannot affect equal opportunity simply because it is prior. One cannot bemoan a lack of his own opportunity by pointing to an obstacle that only his father/mother experienced.
To the brass tacks: If you earn double my salary in a year, does that mean your children have more opportunity than mine? If your general argument is that such higher wealth grants more opportunity, then we are discussing apples vs. oranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Reparations won't fix it. Affirmative action won't fix it. The great society didn't fix it. The sexual revolution didn't fix it. I'm not advocating for legislative action necessarily. I'm advocating for acknowledging the impact of the past and living in that reality as those who have better access and opportunity.
Systemic racism (or wealth disparity) appears neither repairable nor quantifiable. To proclaim an injustice with no solution other than acknowledgement or "awareness" can only have one purpose: political gain through rhetoric.
Previously in your response, the default argument you've made is in relation to wealth, furthering my claim that economic redistribution is at the heart of the systemic racism argument. If the issue is wealth (a quantifiable figure, as you well know), then tell me why reparations wouldn't immediately correct the imbalance. Furthermore, if wealth between races is the issue, then how can we not make a similar claim against wealth disparity between sexes or even individuals? Consistency, yet again.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
As someone who values quantifiable data, I agree with a classical definition of opportunity that can be measured as individual vs. goals vs. obstacles. Equal opportunity in this sense is unable to exist in name only. Opportunity is the realm of the possible (present and future). Prior injustice cannot affect equal opportunity simply because it is prior. One cannot bemoan a lack of his own opportunity by pointing to an obstacle that only his father/mother experienced.
To the brass tacks: If you earn double my salary in a year, does that mean your children have more opportunity than mine? If your general argument is that such higher wealth grants more opportunity, then we are discussing apples vs. oranges.
Systemic racism (or wealth disparity) appears neither repairable nor quantifiable. To proclaim an injustice with no solution other than acknowledgement or "awareness" can only have one purpose: political gain through rhetoric.
Previously in your response, the default argument you've made is in relation to wealth, furthering my claim that economic redistribution is at the heart of the systemic racism argument. If the issue is wealth (a quantifiable figure, as you well know), then tell me why reparations wouldn't immediately correct the imbalance. Furthermore, if wealth between races is the issue, then how can we not make a similar claim against wealth disparity between sexes or even individuals? Consistency, yet again.
What you keep ignoring is that reparations don’t effect the structure that would allow systemic racism to continue. It would take more than doubling salaries to pay for the influence needed to balance the power dynamic. Even if we leveled out the current resources, the structure itself continues to work against black folks. You clearly have a lot more reading to do on the subject before you are ready to crunch numbers.
And, yeah, you could also do the same for women.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What you keep ignoring is that reparations don’t effect the structure that would allow systemic racism to continue. It would take more than doubling salaries to pay for the influence needed to balance the power dynamic. Even if we leveled out the current resources, the structure itself continues to work against black folks. You clearly have a lot more reading to do on the subject before you are ready to crunch numbers.
And, yeah, you could also do the same for women.
You are failing to articulate the specifics regarding this odious structure. You fail to quantify the harm, yet still manage to agree that dollar value can cure the ills.
"The structure is the problem, and no one can quantify the harm."
"It would take more than doubling salaries, but we can crunch numbers after you agree with my point of view."
Pick one.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
You are failing to articulate the specifics regarding this odious structure. You fail to quantify the harm, yet still manage to agree that dollar value can cure the ills.
"The structure is the problem, and no one can quantify the harm."
"It would take more than doubling salaries, but we can crunch numbers after you agree with my point of view."
Pick one.
You are creating a false dichotomy.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You are creating a false dichotomy.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/bc/5f/a9/b...27d6c88174.jpg
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
How much money would it cost you to buy all the money in the world?
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
All races have equal opportunity in this country. It is binary. If your claim is that equality of opportunity is unequal, then a solution should be presented.
It doesn't follow that a problem can only exist if there is a solution.
The question is which definition of opportunity you feel is correct, and we can be ideologically consistent about effects and solutions.
I'll check that out. I think you're right. Definitions are important here.
Prior injustice cannot affect equal opportunity simply because it is prior. One cannot bemoan a lack of his own opportunity by pointing to an obstacle that only his father/mother experienced.
This doesn't pass the smell test. Yes, prior injustice can affect equal opportunity if that injustice continues or has a lasting effect. One can bemoan his own lack of opportunity if his parents experienced hurdles that negatively affected him. Mommy and daddy couldn't afford to live in a good school district. Under the law, he's got equal access to Harvard, but in reality, he doesn't because his parents couldn't afford to help educate him.
To the brass tacks: If you earn double my salary in a year, does that mean your children have more opportunity than mine? If your general argument is that such higher wealth grants more opportunity, then we are discussing apples vs. oranges.
Yes, if I have substantially more resources than you, my children will have more opportunities than yours. Would you argue that higher wealth does not lead to greater opportunity?
Systemic racism (or wealth disparity) appears neither repairable nor quantifiable. To proclaim an injustice with no solution other than acknowledgement or "awareness" can only have one purpose: political gain through rhetoric.
I don't know if it's repairable, but the disproportionate number of African Americans who are impoverished, imprisoned, in poor health, etc is absolutely quantifiable. The second sentence is a non sequitur .
Previously in your response, the default argument you've made is in relation to wealth, furthering my claim that economic redistribution is at the heart of the systemic racism argument.
Perhaps it is the argument of some. It is not part of any claim that I've made...to my knowledge.
If the issue is wealth (a quantifiable figure, as you well know), then tell me why reparations wouldn't immediately correct the imbalance.
Because wealth is the most potent symptom of the issue, but it is not the issue itself. The issue is power and the way that it has been wielded. Where those discriminator power structures remain, the imbalance will continue. Of course, that doesn't matter because whatever reasonable figure you put on the reparations number, we can't afford it.
Furthermore, if wealth between races is the issue, then how can we not make a similar claim against wealth disparity between sexes or even individuals? Consistency, yet again.
See the above.
Sorry, these things get to be a bit much to keep straight in response. I've responded in red within your quote.
Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Sorry, these things get to be a bit much to keep straight in response. I've responded in red within your quote.
No worries.
We have different definitions of opportunity.
I would firstly state that opportunity for success or failure in life is not dictated by a selective-admissions college, but since we’re here:
The Harvard applicant’s parents can move to a better school district. They can homeschool. They can enlist a friend or relative to help tutor the child. The child can go to a lower tier school to prove themselves and then transfer. But in the end, they may not get in. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have an equal opportunity. It means they didn’t merit entry, just like thousands of rich kids and poor kids who came before and will come after.
Back in the real world, the college you go to has little effect on the pursuit of life, liberty, and property. The same reject of Harvard would likely be very successful at Tech, or god forbid, LSU.
You having double the wealth of me doesn’t change my opportunities. I can and will make every effort to change that fortune, and have every chance to succeed as the black man next door. He may just as easily start a new business, be diligent and frugal, marry a like-minded spouse, and seek out knowledge and skills valuable to the market.
Yes, some may have advantages towards specific goals that others don’t. A Harvard alumnus mother, a father owning a business and giving his kid a job etc. The paths to success are varied in length and difficulty, but the opportunity is the same.
My entire point about systemic racism is that it begins and ends on the path of eliminating advantages, not opportunity. The only path to reduce advantage is to level outcomes by redistribution. The solution matters.
