Spoon

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Just because they don't have intrinsic worth doesn't mean that they are not valued by other people. Value is derived solely by the valuer. A penny on the street has no value to me so I won't stop and pick it up. Other people would. I would stop to pick up a dollar. Obama probably has more value to you than to me. My life is more important to me than it is to you, and vice versa. Science clearly has more value to me than some others in this thread. The opposite is true with religion. You think far more highly of U2 than I do. To me, it would kind of be nice for someone to kill them off (and Pearl Jam) so I can stop suffering from painfully awful "new" albums.

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Now that we can agree on!

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Originally Posted by Tech77

I can't imagine what it would feel like to not believe God is there for me in the good and the bad times.

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My perspective is this - all I have is what I experience during my life. There is no "something better coming." Good times and bad times make up that experience. Bad times give me an opportunity to truly appreciate the good and also reflect on the meaning of the good and the bad to me personally. I feel like I am much less likely to take any of these experiences for granted, and I feel like I cherish living much more than I would if I expected there was something better waiting on me when I die.

When I experience loss, I feel like it is more meaningful to me than if I thought I was going to reunite with that person later. There is a poignancy with that that is hard to overstate. But it also adds meaning and significance to the past and the future.

In short, I make more of an effort to live in the moment and live for quality.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

My perspective is this - all I have is what I experience during my life. There is no "something better coming." Good times and bad times make up that experience. Bad times give me an opportunity to truly appreciate the good and also reflect on the meaning of the good and the bad to me personally. I feel like I am much less likely to take any of these experiences for granted, and I feel like I cherish living much more than I would if I expected there was something better waiting on me when I die.

When I experience loss, I feel like it is more meaningful to me than if I thought I was going to reunite with that person later. There is a poignancy with that that is hard to overstate. But it also adds meaning and significance to the past and the future.

In short, I make more of an effort to live in the moment and live for quality.

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I agree we should make the most of our time on earth, doing so in accordance with the teachings of Jesus. But, at funerals of believers who were close to me -- while I am sad that they are no longer here on earth for me to enjoy fellowship with -- I have joy and comfort, fully believing that they are in that perfect place which was promised to his followers by Jesus in John 14:2-3.

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Originally Posted by Chris29

I would, but I don't remember everything you said before, and quite frankly, don't care to dig through 32 pages of this thread to find out.

I've never told anyone they are wrong. And I've stated my case many times in this thread. I don't think you have to have an alternative answer in order to doubt something. Sometimes it is OK to say I don't know. It seems that is difficult for humans to do. But I admit I don't know if God exists, or if he is God of the Bible, or if this is all one great big luck of the draw. But no one else knows either.

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It shouldn't be hard to find that post since it's the one you originally quoted. Nice try, though. :icon_razz:

Like I said, I don't even know if you were the one I was referring to. If you took offense to what I said about people not backing themselves up, I'm sorry, but you're probably arguing with me for no reason whatsoever if you've "stated your case many times in this thread." There are plenty of things I don't know the answer to, and I won't ever falsely claim to know those answers. It's why I've asked CG about biogenesis; I don't know much about it, but I'd like to find out what I can from him.

If one doesn't have an answer to a question, or at least have some information to back themselves up, how can they have any credibility if they claim someone else's answer is wrong? I'll submit to you that there is a difference in doubting something and claiming something to be incorrect, but if you doubt something to be true, that's a perfect time to inquire about it. Get all the information you can, and then make up your mind. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

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Originally Posted by Tech77

I agree we should make the most of our time on earth, doing so in accordance with the teachings of Jesus. But, at funerals of believers who were close to me -- while I am sad that they are no longer here on earth for me to enjoy fellowship with -- I have joy and comfort, fully believing that they are in that perfect place which was promised to his followers by Jesus in John 14:2-3.

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I completely agree. A longtime member of our church passed away last week from cancer. Our pastor said Sunday that the guy told him a few months ago that he didn't want the church body or the pastor praying for his healing because he felt it was his time to go, and that he had more to look forward to on the other side than he did here on Earth. He lived his last few months in joy and peace, knowing that his true healing was coming. I think it's a wonderful testimony of faith, and something that most people (including many Christians) would not be able to do if they were in his situation.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Value is derived solely by the valuer.

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So does the uniformity of values come from some evolutionary advantage that is derived from them? Or, do you deny that there are (nearly) universally valued traits?

I'm not going anywhere with that, just wondering what you think.

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

So does the uniformity of values come from some evolutionary advantage that is derived from them? Or, do you deny that there are (nearly) universally valued traits?

I'm not going anywhere with that, just wondering what you think.

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I don't think any trait is universally valued the same. Different traits are more or less important to different people. Some traits may be generally considered positive (perhaps close to universally, yet I am not sure how close) while others negative. The reasons could be purely cultural or learned in some cases, but in others there could have been an evolutionary advantage, whether there remains an advantage to that trait or not. There is no guarantee of adaptation, particularly over the short term, with evolution.

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Originally Posted by Dowty

It shouldn't be hard to find that post since it's the one you originally quoted. Nice try, though. :icon_razz:

Like I said, I don't even know if you were the one I was referring to. If you took offense to what I said about people not backing themselves up, I'm sorry, but you're probably arguing with me for no reason whatsoever if you've "stated your case many times in this thread." There are plenty of things I don't know the answer to, and I won't ever falsely claim to know those answers. It's why I've asked CG about biogenesis; I don't know much about it, but I'd like to find out what I can from him.

If one doesn't have an answer to a question, or at least have some information to back themselves up, how can they have any credibility if they claim someone else's answer is wrong? I'll submit to you that there is a difference in doubting something and claiming something to be incorrect, but if you doubt something to be true, that's a perfect time to inquire about it. Get all the information you can, and then make up your mind. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

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Wasn't trying to argue with you and definitely never told anyone they are wrong in their beliefs. I was just stating that I don't feel the need to have an answer in order to doubt. That said, I have provided plenty of info in previous posts to back my beliefs/doubts. I am very intrigued by this topic, hence my activity in this thread, and I have enjoyed reading posts from both sides of this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Chris29

Wasn't trying to argue with you and definitely never told anyone they are wrong in their beliefs. I was just stating that I don't feel the need to have an answer in order to doubt. That said, I have provided plenty of info in previous posts to back my beliefs/doubts. I am very intrigued by this topic, hence my activity in this thread, and I have enjoyed reading posts from both sides of this discussion.

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Agreed. I'm just glad that those of us that have been active on this thread have been able to have good discussion and pose good questions without going at each other's throats (except for a couple wanting to press the buttons of the admins :icon_wink:). It's hard to have a cordial debate these days.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

In short, I make more of an effort to live in the moment and live for quality.

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So, the pleasure principle? If it feels good, do it?

Would you behave differently toward a loved one if you ever perceived that he or she had ceased to benefit you?

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Originally Posted by Champ967

So, the pleasure principle? If it feels good, do it?

Would you behave differently toward a loved one if you ever perceived that he or she had ceased to benefit you?

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Never said pleasure, though I am sure there are people that value pleasure above else.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Never said pleasure, though I am sure there are people that value pleasure above else.

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Allow me to rephrase ...

If a friend or loved one no longer brought quality to your life, would you disassociate from them?

Are your relationships contingent on your derived benefit from them? Or is there anyone you love unconditionally just for who they are?

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Originally Posted by Champ967

Allow me to rephrase ...

If a friend or loved one no longer brought quality to your life, would you disassociate from them?

Are your relationships contingent on your derived benefit from them? Or is there anyone you love unconditionally just for who they are?

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To many nuances to answer that on my phone. "Who they are" before or after they changed? And what is the cause of the change? I value people that uphold their commitments, so generally I want to be that person, too. But sometimes circumstances may justify getting away from a toxic relationship.

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Originally Posted by ITdrummer

http://www.wnba.com/media/weatherspoon_300_f060413.jpghttp://cmsimg.thenewsstar.com/apps/p...a-Weatherspoonhttp://www.wnba.com/media/liberty/we...dg_254x308.jpg

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You're making me miss T-Spoon already. I know she will bounce back. Best wishes coach!