China

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Originally Posted by dawg80

That's what I said in the first paragraph.

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Let’s take a trip back to Econ 101

https://youtu.be/5XT3td54Z5U

The last thing I need is a lecture on economics and international business and trade...especially from a self-confessed lib like you. I know all of that stuff. I did it professionally myself.

But that's NOT the point when dealing with a nation like China. Not the only point, anyway. Since you have, once again, missed this point, allow me to explain it a little. Dealing with China is not just about what makes economic sense for both parties. I wish it were. The underlying questions/concerns are, can China be trusted to always follow these economic principles? Many learned folks are not so sure. This is the same regime which boasts they can lose 100 million soldiers in a war and still have more soldiers than the western allies. With a mindset like that, it is not a stretch to believe they might take on some economic hardships just to weaken us and our allies hoping to outlast us and bring us to our knees. You rightfully brought up the matter of the REs. That could be a powerful economic weapon in their hands.

President Trump recognizes the threats. He is taking a stand and applying some pressure to the Chicoms, as he is with Mexico. Yes! there is likely to be some consumer hardships for the average American if this drags out. A political pundit posed an interesting question...why is Trump willing to place his "trump card" a BOOMING economy at risk ahead of his re-election bid? The "political" thing to do is to play it safe, even kowtow to China and maybe even Mexico (have the new NAFTA deal to close yet), win re-election, then maybe play hardball with some of our trading partners. That's what 'How to be a Member of The Swamp 101" teaches. Fortunately for us, and for the free world, Trump is not a member of that club.

I gain new respect for President Trump every day. He is, thankfully, unlike any other "politician" we've had, even more so than the great one Ronaldo Maximus! I know your TDS won't allow you to see this in a positive light, but he is doing the right thing.

Reminds me of that scene from the movie Hoosiers when "coach" could have taken the easy path, did what the townsfolk wanted him to do, but he had a greater vision for that team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM

I am not a self-confessed lib. You guys call me that, but I am more capitalist than you guys (apparently).

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Originally Posted by dawg80

The last thing I need is a lecture on economics and international business and trade...especially from a self-confessed lib like you. I know all of that stuff. I did it professionally myself.

But that's NOT the point when dealing with a nation like China. Not the only point, anyway. Since you have, once again, missed this point, allow me to explain it a little. Dealing with China is not just about what makes economic sense for both parties. I wish it were. The underlying questions/concerns are, can China be trusted to always follow these economic principles? Many learned folks are not so sure. This is the same regime which boasts they can lose 100 million soldiers in a war and still have more soldiers than the western allies. With a mindset like that, it is not a stretch to believe they might take on some economic hardships just to weaken us and our allies hoping to outlast us and bring us to our knees. You rightfully brought up the matter of the REs. That could be a powerful economic weapon in their hands.

President Trump recognizes the threats. He is taking a stand and applying some pressure to the Chicoms, as he is with Mexico. Yes! there is likely to be some consumer hardships for the average American if this drags out. A political pundit posed an interesting question...why is Trump willing to place his "trump card" a BOOMING economy at risk ahead of his re-election bid? The "political" thing to do is to play it safe, even kowtow to China and maybe even Mexico (have the new NAFTA deal to close yet), win re-election, then maybe play hardball with some of our trading partners. That's what 'How to be a Member of The Swamp 101" teaches. Fortunately for us, and for the free world, Trump is not a member of that club.

I gain new respect for President Trump every day. He is, thankfully, unlike any other "politician" we've had, even more so than the great one Ronaldo Maximus! I know your TDS won't allow you to see this in a positive light, but he is doing the right thing.

Reminds me of that scene from the movie Hoosiers when "coach" could have taken the easy path, did what the townsfolk wanted him to do, but he had a greater vision for that team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM

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Interdependence and gains from trade doesn’t really rely on trust. It is a function of trade and comparative advantage. That is the point of that lesson I linked, and something you apparently forgot.

But all this lost gains that we suffer under tariffs - what does that get us?

That is still the question. What are we likely to get in return, because from where I sit, I don’t understand why the economic losses that China will suffer will cause them to change who they fundamentally are. They aren’t a Western Democracy. They don’t value individualism. Their priorities are different and chief among them is social harmony. This has profound implications both in HOW you negotiate with them (the issue of “face”, which Trump continues to cross with them) and how they value the means and ends of their economic objectives (what they think is fair is not what we think is fair, and what we think should be important to them is not as important to them as it would be to us).

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Interdependence and gains from trade doesn’t really rely on trust. It is a function of trade and comparative advantage. That is the point of that lesson I linked, and something you apparently forgot.

But all this lost gains that we suffer under tariffs - what does that get us?

That is still the question. What are we likely to get in return, because from where I sit, I don’t understand why the economic losses that China will suffer will cause them to change who they fundamentally are. They aren’t a Western Democracy. They don’t value individualism. Their priorities are different and chief among them is social harmony. This has profound implications both in HOW you negotiate with them (the issue of “face”, which Trump continues to cross with them) and how they value the means and ends of their economic objectives (what they think is fair is not what we think is fair, and what we think should be important to them is not as important to them as it would be to us).

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Why is there no outcry from you or the rest of the brainwashed about the tariffs China imposes on products it imports from us? You seem to be perfectly OK with those, but not OK with retaliation of any kind because it's President Trump that had the balls to do it. Like D80 said, your TDS prevents you from having any objectivity at all when it comes to anything associated with President Trump. I understand your frustration. Being defeated by the president at every turn has got to be getting old for people that think the way you do.

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Originally Posted by brtransplant

Why is there no outcry from you or the rest of the brainwashed about the tariffs China imposes on products it imports from us? You seem to be perfectly OK with those, but not OK with retaliation of any kind because it's President Trump that had the balls to do it. Like D80 said, your TDS prevents you from having any objectivity at all when it comes to anything associated with President Trump. I understand your frustration. Being defeated by the president at every turn has got to be getting old for people that think the way you do.

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You are confused. The tariffs we hit them with were because they wouldn’t give us the IP deal we wanted. They were NOT in response to tariffs they put on our stuff. Do some research or something.

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Originally Posted by brtransplant

Why is there no outcry from you or the rest of the brainwashed about the tariffs China imposes on products it imports from us?

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Nobody is posting about what a wonderful capitalist Xi Jinping is.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

You are confused. The tariffs we hit them with were because they wouldn’t give us the IP deal we wanted. They were NOT in response to tariffs they put on our stuff. Do some research or something.

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You simply will never admit to your TDS. What you are is a piss poor loser. The fact that President Trump is always a step ahead of you clowns just rips you a new one. Will you never be able to deal with the fact that your side lost and continues to lose? Are you going to behave this way for the next 5 and a half years?

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Originally Posted by brtransplant

You simply will never admit to your TDS. What you are is a piss poor loser. The fact that President Trump is always a step ahead of you clowns just rips you a new one. Will you never be able to deal with the fact that your side lost and continues to lose? Are you going to behave this way for the next 5 and a half years?

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The only people that suffer TDS are Trump supporters. The rest of us have legitimate gripes about how he is destroying America.

Serious question - when are you going to contribute something intelligent to this thread?

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Interdependence and gains from trade doesn’t really rely on trust. It is a function of trade and comparative advantage. That is the point of that lesson I linked, and something you apparently forgot.

But all this lost gains that we suffer under tariffs - what does that get us?

That is still the question. What are we likely to get in return, because from where I sit, I don’t understand why the economic losses that China will suffer will cause them to change who they fundamentally are. They aren’t a Western Democracy. They don’t value individualism. Their priorities are different and chief among them is social harmony. This has profound implications both in HOW you negotiate with them (the issue of “face”, which Trump continues to cross with them) and how they value the means and ends of their economic objectives (what they think is fair is not what we think is fair, and what we think should be important to them is not as important to them as it would be to us).

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I did not forget anything. I simply question whether classic economical models can be applied to the Chicoms. That's my point.

Then you appear to support my concerns by mentioning how they see things differently than we do.

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Originally Posted by dawg80

I did not forget anything. I simply question whether classic economical models can be applied to the Chicoms. That's my point.

Then you appear to support my concerns by mentioning how they see things differently than we do.

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It doesn’t change the fact that we benefit by trading with them when they produce things at lower cost than us, for whatever reason that they do. That is what we lose out on by imposing tariffs on them.

You are like a child...it's nearly impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you.

If someone said, "Hey that car is a pretty blue color, unusual for that make/model. You would say, it has a 340 hp engine. Okay, but it is a pretty blue. You would say, what difference does that make, it has a 340 hp engine.

Duh!!!!!!!! :icon_roll:

Go on carrying on discussions with yourself...

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Originally Posted by dawg80

You are like a child...it's nearly impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you.

If someone said, "Hey that car is a pretty blue color, unusual for that make/model. You would say, it has a 340 hp engine. Okay, but it is a pretty blue. You would say, what difference does that make, it has a 340 hp engine.

Duh!!!!!!!! :icon_roll:

Go on carrying on discussions with yourself...

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You said “I simply question whether classical economic models apply to the Chicoms”. If you understand the principle of interdependence and gain from trade, then you know that, from the perspective of the US, it doesn’t matter. We benefit from lower/no tariffs of Chinese products. We suffer from higher tariffs on Chinese products.

My question is what benefit do we reasonably think we are going to get from this harm?

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

It doesn’t change the fact that we benefit by trading with them when they produce things at lower cost than us, for whatever reason that they do. That is what we lose out on by imposing tariffs on them.

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Because they are willing to work for a bowl of rice and a rat on a stick in jobs that were once held by our middle class. By moving big pieces of our supply chain over there (and elsewhere where they still have sweat shops and extremely low wages), we have created a huge income gap in this country where we pay people large amounts of cash to move good jobs overseas and force people to look at McDonalds as a career (thus the demands for a $15 minimum wage for burger flippers).

The cost is the American dream for most.

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Originally Posted by DawgyNWindow

Because they are willing to work for a bowl of rice and a rat on a stick in jobs that were once held by our middle class. By moving big pieces of our supply chain over there (and elsewhere where they still have sweat shops and extremely low wages), we have created a huge income gap in this country where we pay people large amounts of cash to move good jobs overseas and force people to look at McDonalds as a career (thus the demands for a $15 minimum wage for burger flippers).

The cost is the American dream for most.

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We have freed the need to have people do those jobs so they can do others. That is how interdependence and gains from trade works. Learn about capitalism, Socialist!