Justice for Ahmaud

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

Can you explain that to me? I don't see how either video (the supposed video I haven't seen, but I'll take your word for it...I've seen the one of him in the construction site) should change the charges. The McMichaels had no first hand knowledge of any crime (by their own account of the situation supplied to the police at the time of the incident), thus they had no justification for a citizens arrest. Without the citizens arrest, any defense they have falls apart.

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Sorry, out of pocket yesterday. I don't mean that it should change the charges. I mean that realistically I think it changes the level of conviction they might be able to get.

I have watched the second video and honestly don't see what they said it shows. I see a man come into frame and head down the street, but I couldn't tell that he was coming out of a house or even for sure that it was him. The video looks like it is from a neighbors security camera.

Regardless, I suspect a jury will find it easier to convict the two for killing a jogger vs killing a burglar. Doesn't change any of the facts of what happened, but realistically it might change the outcome. I said it will affect the level of charges they can bring against the two killers, but what I meant was it will change the level of charges they can successfully bring against the two men in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by MoonPieBlue

Do you think this should be prosecuted as a hate crime?

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I don't know much about hate crime legislation. It seems like you would have to prove intent and that would be very difficult to do. I do there think there is sufficient circumstances to justify a murder charge.

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Originally Posted by detltu

Sorry, out of pocket yesterday. I don't mean that it should change the charges. I mean that realistically I think it changes the level of conviction they might be able to get.

I have watched the second video and honestly don't see what they said it shows. I see a man come into frame and head down the street, but I couldn't tell that he was coming out of a house or even for sure that it was him. The video looks like it is from a neighbors security camera.

Regardless, I suspect a jury will find it easier to convict the two for killing a jogger vs killing a burglar. Doesn't change any of the facts of what happened, but realistically it might change the outcome. I said it will affect the level of charges they can bring against the two killers, but what I meant was it will change the level of charges they can successfully bring against the two men in my opinion.

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I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by MoonPieBlue

Do you think this should be prosecuted as a hate crime?

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That's a tough one, if they can find some KKK membership cards for these two or a strong history of past racism then they might be able to go after them for hate crimes, it would also make a murder conviction more likely. I don't see it sticking as of now unless something else comes to light in their past.

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Originally Posted by detltu

That's a tough one, if they can find some KKK membership cards for these two or a strong history of past racism then they might be able to go after them for hate crimes, it would also make a murder conviction more likely. I don't see it sticking as of now unless something else comes to light in their past.

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Just read that GA is one of four states with no hate crime law. They had one in 2000, but the Supreme Court struck it down in 2004 because it was too vague.

In any case, it seems like it would be nearly impossible to prove in this instance as premeditation would need to be shown...right?

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

Did you have to take an online course in whataboutism or is it natural talent?

You still sitting tight until all the facts are in?

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Yep, just like I am with the black guy in Delaware that allegedly killed an old white couple, even though it looks like a slam dunk.

Haven’t heard much about that case. Doesn’t fit the SJW mold for folks like you.

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Originally Posted by glm47

Yep, just like I am with the black guy in Delaware that allegedly killed an old white couple, even though it looks like a slam dunk.

Haven’t heard much about that case. Doesn’t fit the SJW mold for folks like you.

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All natural baby!

Forgive me but this will be a hit and run post for today.

Just wanted to make a couple of observations.

I have prosecuted and defended murder cases. They are NEVER slam dunks and a video, like a picture, is just a snapshot in time.

I am no way defending the white guys actions because I am not privy to what happened before the video, but as a defense lawyer I find it awfully curious that anyone would charge a man holding a shotgun. You do not have to be far away to avoid lethality; the closer you get, the chances of death rise exponentially. Although the power of a 357 remains higher, the ability to hit a moving and/or retreating target drops rather quickly. If the rednecks set out with the specific intent to kill required for a Murder conviction, I guarantee that they had more effective firepower available to them.

The options for the jury will likely not be limited to guilty or not guilty on a single charge and and self defense has a number of nuances to it.

https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/law.aspx?d=112812

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

All natural baby!

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Ok Johnny Lightweight.

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Originally Posted by skilldawg

Forgive me but this will be a hit and run post for today.

Just wanted to make a couple of observations.

I have prosecuted and defended murder cases. They are NEVER slam dunks and a video, like a picture, is just a snapshot in time.

I am no way defending the white guys actions because I am not privy to what happened before the video, but as a defense lawyer I find it awfully curious that anyone would charge a man holding a shotgun. You do not have to be far away to avoid lethality; the closer you get, the chances of death rise exponentially. Although the power of a 357 remains higher, the ability to hit a moving and/or retreating target drops rather quickly. If the rednecks set out with the specific intent to kill required for a Murder conviction, I guarantee that they had more effective firepower available to them.

The options for the jury will likely not be limited to guilty or not guilty on a single charge and and self defense has a number of nuances to it.

https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/law.aspx?d=112812

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This is very true, but I hadn't thought about it (in relation to this case) before now. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the average person to know this or be able to recall this information if they find themselves face to face with a shotgun. I agree that it would be very difficult to prove premeditation other than the fact that they had the foresight to grab their guns. Certainly there are no slam dunks. I think murder is a tall order for this (we can argue whether it should be), but manslaughter is probably a safer bet.

Theses two idiots had no right to create the situation that they did. They could have, and they should have called the police if they had concerns about the guy that they ended up killing. They chose to play like Billy Badasses instead, and now they face spending the rest of their lives in prison. I believe that the penalty for vigilante justice must be severe. I hope they throw the book at these two buffoons.

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Originally Posted by MoonPieBlue

Do you think this should be prosecuted as a hate crime?

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you sly dawg...

i guess execution is a greater punishment than life in prison... but i don’t think that is available under the hate crimes statutes

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Originally Posted by detltu

This is very true, but I hadn't thought about it (in relation to this case) before now. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the average person to know this or be able to recall this information if they find themselves face to face with a shotgun. I agree that it would be very difficult to prove premeditation other than the fact that they had the foresight to grab their guns. Certainly there are no slam dunks. I think murder is a tall order for this (we can argue whether it should be), but manslaughter is probably a safer bet.

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maybe not, but i bet i could find at least one juror in any non intercity jurisdiction in the deep south that would have a basic understanding of the relative efficacy of firearms. if i was prosecuting there would probably be some 2nd Amendment questions in voir dire.

if i had to guess, and it is no more than a guess at this point, this case will go to trial as a murder case because of the racial aspect regardless of the ultimate strengths or weaknesses of the case. a good lawyer in front of a suburban jury gets it down to at least negligent homicide. that whole reasonable doubt thing can be tricky

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Originally Posted by skilldawg

maybe not, but i bet i could find at least one juror in any non intercity jurisdiction in the deep south that would have a basic understanding of the relative efficacy of firearms. if i was prosecuting there would probably be some 2nd Amendment questions in voir dire.

if i had to guess, and it is no more than a guess at this point, this case will go to trial as a murder case because of the racial aspect regardless of the ultimate strengths or weaknesses of the case. a good lawyer in front of a suburban jury gets it down to at least negligent homicide. that whole reasonable doubt thing can be tricky

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And I'm sure Ahmaud's family will pursue a wrongful death civil suit as well. IDK how Georgia law is regarding such a matter, but surely there is something allowing it. And if so, the jury will probably award some silly amount like $400 million! Even though the defendants barely have a pot to pee in.

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Originally Posted by skilldawg

maybe not, but i bet i could find at least one juror in any non intercity jurisdiction in the deep south that would have a basic understanding of the relative efficacy of firearms. if i was prosecuting there would probably be some 2nd Amendment questions in voir dire.

if i had to guess, and it is no more than a guess at this point, this case will go to trial as a murder case because of the racial aspect regardless of the ultimate strengths or weaknesses of the case. a good lawyer in front of a suburban jury gets it down to at least negligent homicide. that whole reasonable doubt thing can be tricky

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I completely agree with you. It is certainly enough to place doubt in the mind of a juror. A murder conviction is a steep hill to climb. Reasonable doubt is huge in a case like this. The reality is the jurors are weighing two peoples lives in their hands and they will be hesitant unless the case is air tight. Few cases are.

https://bearingarms.com/cam-e/2020/05/13/arbery-accused-murderers-killer-karens/

i find the reactions to this case fascinating. it is obviously tragic on so many levels