Why no Trump impeachment thread on Paw-Litics???

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

What channel are you seeing clips on?

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Clips have to be found on the internet. youtube, CNN, etc.

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Originally Posted by detltu

Saying there is no doubt or "it's proven" does not make it so. If they want to make the case they should address these issues and not avoid them. I think this particular issue is probably not as cut and dry as they would like everyone to believe and likely wouldn't sway many people. The second part and perhaps the tougher part is does this warrant impeachment even if true? That is probably the more contentious issue.

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We had already certified that Ukraine had made corruption reforms. What else could we have possibly been expecting to get from Ukraine making a Burisma/elections statement? There is no doubt that the statement would benefit Trump politically.

Res ipsa loquitur.

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Originally Posted by detltu

Clips have to be found on the internet. youtube, CNN, etc.

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You know why clips are problematic. Context is crucial if you want to understand the evidence.

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Originally Posted by detltu

False dilemma and straw man mostly. What you quoted is actually a false dilemma actually.

Also did Trump ever mention the Russians trying to hack Burisma? I honestly missed that. That is news to me, although again I don't know that it matters too much. This goes back to the Russian interference in the election. Honestly we have to allow people to be smart enough/ dumb enough to make up their own minds and weed out the disinformation. This is where a strong trusted media would be helpful. Now, if another country is actually trying to falsify votes or tamper with counts, then that is a serious issue that whoever is president needs to address whether it is in their best interests or not.

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Not to my knowledge, but it is easy to predict that the Burisma hack (fake or real materials) could be peddled to influence 2020 election. We can’t trust our president to put the nation’s interest over his own.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Not to my knowledge, but it is easy to predict that the Burisma hack (fake or real materials) could be peddled to influence 2020 election. We can’t trust our president to put the nation’s interest over his own.

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Is this Schiff's parrot speaking?

The issue of needing people to be smart and figure out disinformation on their own is a noble objective, but as we can see, folks like Ray just can’t tell the difference.

And while we get the government we collectively “deserve” we know Russians are exploiting these channels to influence their interests, and we must insist that our leaders not exploit these efforts when it furthers their own personal political interests. They must put the country first.

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Originally Posted by DawgyNWindow

Is this Schiff's parrot speaking?

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I will clarify his point for the dull, we don’t know whether the Russian hack of Burisma will be an issue or not. We do know that the efforts of Russia and others to influence our elections will be persistent and we also know that our current President will not do anything to stop it if it also benefits him.

I think, even you, know these statements are true.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

We had already certified that Ukraine had made corruption reforms. What else could we have possibly been expecting to get from Ukraine making a Burisma/elections statement? There is no doubt that the statement would benefit Trump politically.

Res ipsa loquitur.

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just because Ukraine had made corruption reforms doesn't mean there is nothing to be done. If there was corruption that involved the highest offices of the United States, Ukraine would have little authority to make changes to US policy to remedy the situation.

And when our leaders are cheating at elections, you can’t really rely on elections to be the remedy. They will keep using the tremendous power we bestowed on them to manipulate the electorate in their favor.

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Originally Posted by detltu

just because Ukraine had made corruption reforms doesn't mean there is nothing to be done. If there was corruption that involved the highest offices of the United States, Ukraine would have little authority to make changes to US policy to remedy the situation.

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But Trump didn’t ask for anything to be done about corruption in the general sense. He was only concerned with Biden and elections.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

You know why clips are problematic. Context is crucial if you want to understand the evidence.

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Very true, and a trusted media would be helpful in this case as well.

As it is I trust CNN to present the testimony in the most damaging light possible for Trump so I feel like they will do what they can to present the best version of the managers arguments they can fit into a smaller clip.

I honestly struggle to maintain focus when I try to watch the straight feed. It is really boring and seems like very little new information.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

The issue of needing people to be smart and figure out disinformation on their own is a noble objective, but as we can see, folks like Ray just can’t tell the difference.

And while we get the government we collectively “deserve” we know Russians are exploiting these channels to influence their interests, and we must insist that our leaders not exploit these efforts when it furthers their own personal political interests. They must put the country first.

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I think my main point is if we get into the business of policing misinformation we will find ourselves in a huge mess. I certainly don't want the government doing it because it will mean the end of the free press. This is why we need an independent press that we can trust. Polling shows we don't have that right now and I am in agreement. We need someone to uphold the truth above politics.

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Originally Posted by detltu

Very true, and a trusted media would be helpful in this case as well.

As it is I trust CNN to present the testimony in the most damaging light possible for Trump so I feel like they will do what they can to present the best version of the managers arguments they can fit into a smaller clip.

I honestly struggle to maintain focus when I try to watch the straight feed. It is really boring and seems like very little new information.

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The other impeachment managers’ presentations felt more dull/repetitive. Schiff’s was easy to follow.

There is no doubt why he is hated so much be the right wing media. He has game.

I just follow along while doing cardio, so it isn’t like I have something more exciting competing for my attention at that time.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

And when our leaders are cheating at elections, you can’t really rely on elections to be the remedy. They will keep using the tremendous power we bestowed on them to manipulate the electorate in their favor.

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This is where you start to lose me. Was Clinton "cheating" at an election when she hired a firm to spread misinformation on her opponent? If not, then how in the world is Donald Trump cheating when we have found no actual link between Trump and the Russian disinformation campaign that we don't actually know affected the election at all?

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Originally Posted by detltu

I think my main point is if we get into the business of policing misinformation we will find ourselves in a huge mess. I certainly don't want the government doing it because it will mean the end of the free press. This is why we need an independent press that we can trust. Polling shows we don't have that right now and I am in agreement. We need someone to uphold the truth above politics.

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Most folks CHOOSE to select the “news” source that will confirm their bias and not challenge their worldview. An independent news source, to the extent you could have such a thing, would struggle.

It is very problematic that FoxNews wouldn’t show the full trial. Everyone knows why. Helping people hide out from hearing things they don’t want to hear is not a noble purpose.