Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Repentance and forgiveness are not the same thing. Repentance is the other side of the coin of faith. Repentance IS required for salvation.
If I was a pastor, there is no way Trump would be admitted for membership as his "testimony" stands.
The same is true for Rubio, whom I support.
Trump's faith is one of the last things that keeps me from voting for him. His authoritarian, big-government, anti-constitutional platform is what keeps me from voting for him.
He's the closest thing to a facist we've had this close to the presidency in my lifetime.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
I disagree in part.
Jesus taught us these basic principles on how to pray. Forgiveness should be an important part of our daily prayer as Christ taught below. But yes we have been forgiven already as he took our sins to the cross if you believe upon him. But I ask you, how can one
not ask The Lord God to forgive you of your past sins? One needs to recognize one's own sinner to ask for mercy and forgiveness. And
one must be humble to ask forgiveness which isn't necessarily a strong suit of Trump's. But the other side of the coin would be the thief on the cross who's recorded words were only to
"Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom". This is stickily the belief in which you reference.
I haven't posted the entire prayer.
The prayer as it occurs in Matthew 6: 9 - 13
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come,your will be done,on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from evil.
The prayer as it occurs in Luke 11: 2-4
Father,hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins
as for we ourselves
forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.
Here also is an issue with Trump per this conversation.
The Pharisee and Tax Collector
…12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Why I hesitated to bring it up... This is an Old Covenant prayer. It was necessary to bring a sin offering in order to be forgiven. There was a condition. After the cross, that requirement went away. Col 3:13 says we are to forgive because we have been forgiven. It never says it is necessary to forgive to receive salvation.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Monty, on nuts and bolts, I think I agree with you. The deeper question is whether or not a refusal to ask for forgiveness (which I do think is taught in the LP) is a sign of pride or some unrepentant sin in the life of the individual. Unrepentant sin is a very serious issue in the New Testament church.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maddawg
Why I hesitated to bring it up... This is an Old Covenant prayer. It was necessary to bring a sin offering in order to be forgiven. There was a condition. After the cross, that requirement went away. Col 3:13 says we are to forgive because we have been forgiven. It never says it is necessary to forgive to receive salvation.
Tough one but I do find it interesting that asking "for DAILY our bread" comes just in front of "Forgive us our sins".
I still ask, how can one not ask for forgiveness when prompted and moved by the Holy Spirit to look at our sinful past.
Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Read More...)
Asking for mercy and repenting is an act of asking for forgiveness.
Believe me, I am of the "once saved always saved" belief. However,
What about these verses?
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Matthew 6:14 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Monty, on nuts and bolts, I think I agree with you. The deeper question is whether or not a refusal to ask for forgiveness (which I do think is taught in the LP) is a sign of pride or some unrepentant sin in the life of the individual. Unrepentant sin is a very serious issue in the New Testament church.
Very true.
James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Read More...)
Matthew 6:14 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Monty, on nuts and bolts, I think I agree with you. The deeper question is whether or not a refusal to ask for forgiveness (which I do think is taught in the LP) is a sign of pride or some unrepentant sin in the life of the individual. Unrepentant sin is a very serious issue in the New Testament church.
Yes, I figured this would come up too. Not to single out Trump here, but as serious as unrepentant sin (known sin) is it is not a deal breaker according to the New Covenant. I agree with some that Trump may not believe he is a sinner. He may not believe he needs any sort of atonement, but not because he understands the concept of grace and mercy.
I don't know what he believes, but he has not done a good job of explaining his beliefs. He should be able to explain if he is a believer.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Very true.
James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Matthew 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (Read More...)
Matthew 6:14 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
All that is a part of the Christian walk, but not a necessary part of salvation. It's the way we should act toward each other. To say that you must confess sins to another believer is to imply that the cross was not enough.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maddawg
Yes, I figured this would come up too. Not to single out Trump here, but as serious as unrepentant sin (known sin) is it is not a deal breaker according to the New Covenant. I agree with some that Trump may not believe he is a sinner. He may not believe he needs any sort of atonement, but not because he understands the concept of grace and mercy.
I don't know what he believes, but he has not done a good job of explaining his beliefs. He should be able to explain if he is a believer.
I certainly agree with this 100%.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Tough one but I do find it interesting that asking "for DAILY our bread" comes just in front of "Forgive us our sins".
Jesus' body is now the bread. As you know it was broken for our healing. DAILY bread means it is available everyday.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maddawg
Jesus' body is now the bread. As you know it was broken for our healing. DAILY bread means it is available everyday.
Yes I agree. and again I believe in "once saved always saved" and in the arms of Christ.
I just have a really hard time with Trump's quote of never having ask forgiveness (I guess of anybody) and then relaying that to his statement of being a Christian. And yes I know that is between he and the Lord.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Yes I agree. and again I believe in "once saved always saved" and in the arms of Christ.
I just have a really hard time with Trump's quote of never having ask forgiveness (I guess of anybody) and then relaying that to his statement of being a Christian. And yes I know that is between he and the Lord.
I cringed when I heard what he said, because I knew what the reaction of some would be. I had the same reaction in my own mind. He owes a large segment of the voting block he is going after and explanation of his beliefs if he is going to make non-biblical statements. I'm still rolling my eyes at the "Two Corinthians" comment.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maddawg
Yes, I figured this would come up too. Not to single out Trump here, but as serious as unrepentant sin (known sin) is it is not a deal breaker according to the New Covenant. I agree with some that Trump may not believe he is a sinner. He may not believe he needs any sort of atonement, but not because he understands the concept of grace and mercy.
I don't know what he believes, but he has not done a good job of explaining his beliefs. He should be able to explain if he is a believer.
I disagree. Unrepentant sin is a deal breaker in the body. It may not necessarily mean someone is not saved, but it was serious enough that the Church was instructed to treat one who who had unrepentant sin as if they are an unbeliever.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I disagree. Unrepentant sin is a deal breaker in the body. It may not necessarily mean someone is not saved, but it was serious enough that the Church was instructed to treat one who who had unrepentant sin as if they are an unbeliever.
We are talking about two different things. I am talking about unrepentant sin not costing salvation. We can never be good enough. I know you don't believe the church is the judge. What scripture are you referring to? Matt 18:17?
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Yes, Matthew 18 is the core text here. My point is that those who don't repent have no Biblical ground to be confident that they are saved.
Re: 2016 Presidential Campaign
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Yes, Matthew 18 is the core text here. My point is that those who don't repent have no Biblical ground to be confident that they are saved.
So gossip will send a blue hair to hell as quick as an extra marital affair would send a back seat baptist? How about the deacon who secretly lusts after one of the hot (we'll keep it female) members? He is doomed too.:icon_razz:
