Why no Trump impeachment thread on Paw-Litics???

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

The reason they have wanted to impeach him for so long is because of his constantly demonstrated character flaws that keep leading him into these messes. He is unethical. His pattern of unethical conduct started day 1.

Literally on day 1, he cancelled the ethics course that is given to the staff of incoming administrations.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...e-house-235586

I raised hell about this then because it was clear what it signaled about how he wanted his administration to be run.

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Do you think getting a blow job from an intern in the oval office is ethical? Do you think exposing yourself to a woman is ethical?? Do you think raping a woman is ethical?

Looks like this impeachment hearing isn't working for Biden. He's now trailing Bernie. Does a socialist have a chance of being elected president of the USA.

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Originally Posted by DONW

Do you think getting a blow job from an intern in the oval office is ethical? Do you think exposing yourself to a woman is ethical?? Do you think raping a woman is ethical?

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He thinks it's in the orbit. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

If Trump were holding up aid to make sure Ukraine was fighting corruption, we wouldn’t have a problem (except for Trump’s unprecedented obstruction of Congress). But I doubt he would have obstructed Congress if the evidence didn’t look as bad as what we have seen.

The problem is that all of the evidence shows that he was actually trying to cause corruption to further a personal political interest rather than a US foreign policy interest.

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LOL, yeah, no problems at all....except the dem party and especially representatives from the Obama administration were as - or more - culpable in the rampant corruption as the Ukrainian government.

There was no Durham investigation or IG investigation at the time. It was up to Trump to fight the corruption in the government that launched investigations into his campaign based on virtually nothing, and abused the FISA process by lying about information they KNEW was false to spy on his campaign (here is a good Nixon reference for you) through Carter Page - who was a true patriot.

Obstruct Congress????? He released the call transcript that was supposedly the big issue for the "whistleblower" who had set all this up with Schiff - or Schiff's staff - before the complaint was sent through the proper channels. Oh, not to mention this "whistleblower" - another CIA idiot - had supposedly made statements after the election that something had to be done to get Trump out of office.

Yep, there is corruption here. This is dem corruption perpetrated by the dem party and their sycophant media morons (you know, the ones that kept showing the kids in cages from the Obama era and attributing them to Trump's policy) who think they are saving the world.

If anybody thinks witnesses are going to change people minds I have oceanfront property to sell you. We know what happened. It's frustrating to people on both sides that minds are made up and everyone doesn't agree.

I'm honestly surprised there isn't stronger support for ending this without witnesses. It's just going to get nastier and more divisive. The only thing I can think is that Democrats are hoping they get to call their witnesses and Republicans are blocked from calling theirs. It still wouldn't change their minds, but it would rile up the bases more.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

I guess that means Dems are less tribal than Republicans. The nonsense that some Republican senators and representatives are saying these days is completely disingenuous and shameful.

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Yep, those disingenuous repubs.

Like these statements?

“I wonder if the House managers aren’t a little more interested in political theater than in actually getting to the bottom of the facts.”

"There must never be a narrowly-voted impeachment or an impeachment substantially supported by one of our major political parties and largely opposed by the other." Such an impeachment would lack legitimacy."

The top one was Schumer and the bottom was Nadler. Silly boys.

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Originally Posted by detltu

If anybody thinks witnesses are going to change people minds I have oceanfront property to sell you. We know what happened. It's frustrating to people on both sides that minds are made up and everyone doesn't agree.

I'm honestly surprised there isn't stronger support for ending this without witnesses. It's just going to get nastier and more divisive. The only thing I can think is that Democrats are hoping they get to call their witnesses and Republicans are blocked from calling theirs. It still wouldn't change their minds, but it would rile up the bases more.

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That's exactly what Schumer is hoping for. He said no negotiations on witnesses, they only want to call their witnesses period. This will not fly with the turtle. Thus it should hopefully be over soon.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

I thought you were smarter than that.

It isn’t what he is thinking that deserves the conviction, it is what he did. If he just thought about a way to cheat at the election, that isn’t an impeachable offense. It is the fact that he did in fact try to cheat - he acted.

INTENT is almost always an element of a crime - in criminal law, it is called the mens rea. Given that you can’t literally see into the mind of a defendant, mens rea is always inferred from the evidence. In this case, the evidence shows that Trump was trying to implicate a political opponent and cast doubt on Russian interference in 2016 while showing that Ukraine interfered to harm him. These objects are personal political objectives - not national objectives.

The argument that Trump was concerned about corruption in the general sense is contradicted by (1) Trumps past conduct showing lack of concern, (2) how narrowly tailored this request was towards his election messaging, (3) the evidence of his effort to cover this up (including the instruction to everyone with knowledge not to talk or produce documents, (4) the evidence from career civil servants that are intimately familiar with our foreign policy dealings with Ukraine and the shake down of Zelensky, (5) the fact that Trump used such unusual channels to carry out this effort including Rudy’s letter to Zelensky saying that he was representing the president in the personal context, and (6) the fact that what he was asking Zelensky to announce he was investigating (Biden/Ukraine interference) is bunk and believed to be bunk by our intelligence community.

That is a lot of circumstantial evidence of guilt - and as I said, mens rea evidence is almost always circumstantial without an admission. Maybe Bolton could add more clarity one way or another.

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What did he do that deserves a conviction? How did he cheat? By asking for them to "do us a favor" ?

Bolton is your new Blasey Ford. I thought you were smarter than that, but the political company you keep says otherwise.

The hypocrite Dems want an acquittal of Trump without witnesses so folks like Guisslapp can say it wasn’t a fair trial even though they could have called the folks they now want when they were in charge in Congress. The Dems just didn’t do their job in the congressional hearings and in fact did a terrible job, like Hillary in the 2016 campaign. And it was the most 3rd world circus I’ve seen out of the liberal DC swamp. The Dems and Guisslapp have lost this attempt to remove Trump and influence the 2020 election just like the failed in the Mueller report. They are blinded by hatred and evil and can’t get their 3rd world socialist shit together.

On a side note.. Special TX election near Guissy, was supposed to be the beginning of turning TX blue. This area voted for Hillary in 2016. Many democratic POTUS candidates endorsed and campaigned for democratic candidate. Beto basically lived in W. Houston for last few weeks trying to get people out.. Landslide Republican victory.

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Originally Posted by DONW

Do you think getting a blow job from an intern in the oval office is ethical? Do you think exposing yourself to a woman is ethical?? Do you think raping a woman is ethical?

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No.

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Originally Posted by PawDawg

What did he do that deserves a conviction? How did he cheat? By asking for them to "do us a favor" ?

Bolton is your new Blasey Ford. I thought you were smarter than that, but the political company you keep says otherwise.

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Have you not been paying attention? You are focusing on a single snapshot in time of a non-transcript. We just heard evidence of a multi-month effort to obtain this investigation where everyone involved knew exactly why the announcement of an investigation was wanted. One word on something that isn’t a transcript doesn’t change al that. The context matters.

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Originally Posted by Guisslapp

Have you not been paying attention? You are focusing on a single snapshot in time of a non-transcript. We just heard evidence of a multi-month effort to obtain this investigation where everyone involved knew exactly why the announcement of an investigation was wanted. One word on something that isn’t a transcript doesn’t change al that. The context matters.

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Apparently you have not been paying attention if you think we just heard "evidence of a multi-month effort to obtain this investigation"

You got nothing.

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Originally Posted by PawDawg

Apparently you have not been paying attention if you think we just heard "evidence of a multi-month effort to obtain this investigation"

You got nothing.

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You missed the 3 days where the House spelled it all out in detail.

Wow, Dershowitz just argued that a president that uses a quid pro quo that is purposely directed to his re-election is not impeachable.

If we live in a world where a President can secretly try to use a foreign government to help him win an election, and he cannot be held accountable, then we are inciting corruption, undermining the rule of law, and vitiating the oath of office.

Dershowitz is operating way off in left field now.