Why Jenkins should continue to start

First, a statistical comparison versus last year...

----------------Comp----Att-----Yards---TD---INT---Comp %---Yds/Att---Effic
Bennett--------66------167-----873------2-----6-----39.5%-------5.2-------80.2
Jenkins 08-----92------174----1155-----7-----3-----52.9%-------6.6------118.5
Jenkins 09-----78------131-----888------3-----3-----59.5%-------6.8------119.5


This year Ross has a much better completion percentage and a slightly better rating that would be much better if he had a couple more touchdown passes. He also must be making the correct audible an insane amount of times when the coaches go back at watch the film.

This season is what it is and the goal is really just to get to a bowl. With the upcoming two games being by far the easiest two game stretch of the year, our coaches have to feel like that we can't do anything to screw these games up. They have to figure that an average performance by RJ will be enough to win the next two games and at least give the team a chance to get to 6-6 by winning 2 out of 3 versus Idaho, Fresno, and San Jose. It looks like Idaho, Boise State, and Nevada will all be bowl eligible, while Fresno has a 50/50 shot. Since the WAC has 3 automatic bowl tie ins, if Boise State makes it to a BCS bowl, we could get an automatic bid at 6-6 if Fresno comes up short of 6 wins. Also, I'm not sure about the WAC's contingency agreement with the Poinsettia bowl, but I guess they could theoretically get the second place WAC team if Boise made the BCS giving the WAC 5 bowl tie ins this season.

The absolute worst thing they can do is put in a new QB with first game jitters against Utah State. Our team is not a come from behind team. We need to be efficient from the very first snap. Dooley has to be afraid that any new QB would probably throw a couple of interceptions and fumble a snap (as is par for the course for a first start), costing us a very winnable game. If we lose to Utah State, all bowl hopes are pretty much gone, and Dooley can't take the chance of messing it up. Now, if we lose at homecoming and a bowl looks like it is out of the picture, then all bets are off and I wouldn't be suprised if a couple of backups get some playing time against Utah State and Idaho. But for now, our best shot is for Ross to keep throwing for 178 yards per game and rely on the ground game and turnovers to win these upcoming games.

We're playing against New Mexico State at home. We'll still have our running backs. We've seen what Ross can do. This is the best chance to see what Cameron can do. It reminds me of the Idaho game last year (winnable home game) where Ross got his first start.

Sure, start Jenkins. But Sunshine needs some snaps these next two weeks.

Great post.

We lost so we call for heads and as usual the OC and QB are the primary targets. It's nice to see statistics that prove the sky is not falling.

Was a gut check for me, thanks.

I really think another QB should get a couple of series. Not Raulston... he needs to redshit. Just going by what I saw at the Spring Game, we have 4 QB's with equal talent. Let's put one of them in and see if the offense moves any better. We did it last year and it worked out well.... let's try it again.

1st series - Ross
2nd series - Ross
3rd series - Colby
4th series - Ross
5th series - Ross
6th series - Colby
.
.
.

I think it would help Ross to see the our offense/their defense from the sideline in a couple of series.

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Originally Posted by littleshoe

Great post.

We lost so we call for heads and as usual the OC and QB are the primary targets. It's nice to see statistics that prove the sky is not falling.

Was a gut check for me, thanks.

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Statistics are for losers, remember? Nicholls totally skews the numbers. I want the head of the OC the OL coach and the WR coach! The QB position is just a mess and the DC should be on probation (on my ledger).

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Originally Posted by T_Won

I really think another QB should get a couple of series. Not Raulston... he needs to redshit.

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Good Lord, what do you want him to do, eat a lot of Chipotle?

The best team Jenkins faced last year finished 7-6 and he got to play all of the WAC weaklings. The combined winning percentage of his FBS opponents last year? 37% I'd say his 2009 stats are skewed since he hasn't gotten to play the awesome pass defenses of the poor WAC teams yet.

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Originally Posted by zharkins

The best team Jenkins faced last year finished 7-6 and he got to play all of the WAC weaklings. The combined winning percentage of his FBS opponents last year? 37% I'd say his 2009 stats are skewed since he hasn't gotten to play the awesome pass defenses of the poor WAC teams yet.

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Is that a defense for the QB - he just hasn't had a chance to play against really, really bad teams yet?!!!!

If not for the Nicholls game, he wouldn't look all that great, especially after the pathetic Nevada game we had.

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

Statistics are for losers, remember? Nicholls totally skews the numbers. I want the head of the OC the OL coach and the WR coach! The QB position is just a mess and the DC should be on probation (on my ledger).

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Good post. The only statistic that matters is W-L.

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Originally Posted by Ktulu7

Good Lord, what do you want him to do, eat a lot of Chipotle?

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Did you watch that South Park episode the other day? Pretty funny.

The stats are also skewed by the type of throws we ask Ross to make, the types of throws he attempts and the sacks he takes when he hangs on to the ball too long. (I do realize a lot of the sacks are the result of an OL breakdown not Ross, but there are times he simply doesn't get rid of it on time)

The best thing for Ross and the other QB's would be to let Hardin or Cameron have a series every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Ktulu7

Good Lord, what do you want him to do, eat a lot of Chipotle?

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ooops. :laugh:

http://www.advantageservice.net/images/tijuanamam.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ktulu7

Good Lord, what do you want him to do, eat a lot of Chipotle?

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Only if he has a good supply of Chipotlaway!

Haha when I read that post, that was the first thing I thought of.

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Originally Posted by zharkins

First, a statistical comparison versus last year...

----------------Comp----Att-----Yards---TD---INT---Comp %---Yds/Att---Effic
Bennett--------66------167-----873------2-----6-----39.5%-------5.2-------80.2
Jenkins 08-----92------174----1155-----7-----3-----52.9%-------6.6------118.5
Jenkins 09-----78------131-----888------3-----3-----59.5%-------6.8------119.5


This year Ross has a much better completion percentage and a slightly better rating that would be much better if he had a couple more touchdown passes. He also must be making the correct audible an insane amount of times when the coaches go back at watch the film.

This season is what it is and the goal is really just to get to a bowl. With the upcoming two games being by far the easiest two game stretch of the year, our coaches have to feel like that we can't do anything to screw these games up. They have to figure that an average performance by RJ will be enough to win the next two games and at least give the team a chance to get to 6-6 by winning 2 out of 3 versus Idaho, Fresno, and San Jose. It looks like Idaho, Boise State, and Nevada will all be bowl eligible, while Fresno has a 50/50 shot. Since the WAC has 3 automatic bowl tie ins, if Boise State makes it to a BCS bowl, we could get an automatic bid at 6-6 if Fresno comes up short of 6 wins. Also, I'm not sure about the WAC's contingency agreement with the Poinsettia bowl, but I guess they could theoretically get the second place WAC team if Boise made the BCS giving the WAC 5 bowl tie ins this season.

The absolute worst thing they can do is put in a new QB with first game jitters against Utah State. Our team is not a come from behind team. We need to be efficient from the very first snap. Dooley has to be afraid that any new QB would probably throw a couple of interceptions and fumble a snap (as is par for the course for a first start), costing us a very winnable game. If we lose to Utah State, all bowl hopes are pretty much gone, and Dooley can't take the chance of messing it up. Now, if we lose at homecoming and a bowl looks like it is out of the picture, then all bets are off and I wouldn't be suprised if a couple of backups get some playing time against Utah State and Idaho. But for now, our best shot is for Ross to keep throwing for 178 yards per game and rely on the ground game and turnovers to win these upcoming games.

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I hope you realize that you just posted the fact that our QB has thrown for a GRAND TOTAL of only 888 yds in 5 games in 2009. And probably more than a third of that yardage came against Nicholls St, a drastically undermanned team.

Also, only 3 passing TD's vs 3 INT's is downright ABSURD!

Those are really pathetic statistics. I don't see how you are helping Ross's cause. This REALLY sucks.


HD

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

I hope you realize that you just posted the fact that our QB has thrown for a GRAND TOTAL of only 888 yds in 5 games in 2009. And probably more than a third of that yardage came against Nicholls St, a drastically undermanned team.

Also, only 3 passing TD's vs 3 INT's is downright ABSURD!

Those are really pathetic statistics. I don't see how you are helping Ross's cause. This REALLY sucks.


HD

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Yea. Seriously. How can a QB not be throwing for over 1000 yards by now? This guy really sucks too.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183484

Imagine what his numbers would be like without that sorry Troy he passed all over for 4 TDs.

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Yea. Seriously. How can a QB not be throwing for over 1000 yards by now? This guy really sucks too.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183484

Imagine what his numbers would be like without that sorry Troy he passed all over for 4 TDs.

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And Tebow has thrown for SEVEN (7) TD's vs 2 INT's. You're still burying your own case. :icon_wink:


HD

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Yea. Seriously. How can a QB not be throwing for over 1000 yards by now? This guy really sucks too.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=183484

Imagine what his numbers would be like without that sorry Troy he passed all over for 4 TDs.

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Dude. Its Tim Tebow. Ross is Ross.

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

And Tebow has thrown for SEVEN (7) TD's vs 2 INT's. You're still burying your own case. :icon_wink:


HD

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4 against Troy. You can't blame Ross for drops or our running game being a better scoring threat.

And your entire point was 800 yards in 5 games is terrible. TDs is another point. Keep in mind Florida is also considered one of the best offenses in the country.

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Originally Posted by CChandler

Dude. Its Tim Tebow. Ross is Ross.

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I know. Just proving HD that on a running team, 800 yards isn't as bad as he thinks.

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Originally Posted by CChandler

Dude. Its Tim Tebow. Ross is Ross.

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Only Juice would try to compare Ross Jenkins' year favorably to Tim Tebow's. :laugh: However, you kinda have to admire his gumption. That boy has got nothing but red & blue glasses on....:laugh:


HD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

Only Juice would try to compare Ross Jenkins' year favorably to Tim Tebow's. :laugh: However, you kinda have to admire his gumption. That boy has got nothing but red & blue glasses on....:laugh:


HD

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And HD still doesn't get it. You're argument is 800 yards through 5 games is terrible. Tebow doesn't even have 800 yards through 5 games. Then again it isn't like it matters because you will say our passing game sucks as long as we aren't throwing for 400 yards a game...with a QB from Texas.

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Originally Posted by Juice752

And HD still doesn't get it. You're argument is 800 yards through 5 games is terrible. Tebow doesn't even have 800 yards through 5 games. Then again it isn't like it matters because you will say our passing game sucks as long as we aren't throwing for 400 yards a game...with a QB from Texas.

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No Juice, your argument still doesn't work.

1) TeBow is on the # 1 ranked team in the nation, and Jenkins is not.
2) TeBow is surrounded by world class talent, while Jenkins is NOT.
3) TeBow, a Heisman Trophy winner, is a genuine running threat, while Jenkins is NOT.
4) Tebow is backed by a stable of RB's and a depth chart that Jenkins can only dream about.

Like it or not, LA Tech does not have the talent and the depth that Florida has, so it is ludicrous to think we can depend soley on our running game to win football games. Other than against the occassional weak defenses (e.g., Hawaii), that will never happen.

Like it or not, it is absolutely imperative that we be successful throwing the football. It was proven to us last year (when we had a very anemic and limited offense), and it's certainly being DRILLED into our thick heads again THIS year. If you want to win, we've GOT to throw the ball!! Please GET THE MESSSAGE!


HD

Most telling stat: Tebow wins, Jenkins doesn't. The only reason most overlooked Jenkins' lack of passing skills last year is bc we were winning. Not so much this year.

was sitting in malone stadium last night watching the game. was talking to one of the guys off of the ulm message board. In the middle of it he ask, "hey man, WHATS the deal with your QB". I had to laugh. We might be a bunch of squirrels but those outside the squirrel nest are thinking the same way.

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

No Juice, your argument still doesn't work.

1) TeBow is on the # 1 ranked team in the nation, and Jenkins is not.
2) TeBow is surrounded by world class talent, while Jenkins is NOT.
3) TeBow, a Heisman Trophy winner, is a genuine running threat, while Jenkins is NOT.
4) Tebow is backed by a stable of RB's and a depth chart that Jenkins can only dream about.

Like it or not, LA Tech does not have the talent and the depth that Florida has, so it is ludicrous to think we can depend soley on our running game to win football games. Other than against the occassional weak defenses (e.g., Hawaii), that will never happen.

Like it or not, it is absolutely imperative that we be successful throwing the football. It was proven to us last year (when we had a very anemic and limited offense), and it's certainly being DRILLED into our thick heads again THIS year. If you want to win, we've GOT to throw the ball!! Please GET THE MESSSAGE!


HD

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1- #1 running team or not, we are a primarily running team. Running teams run the ball a lot more than they throw. For some reason I feel I still have to break this down to you.

2- If Tebow is sourrounded by world class talent, shouldn't that help his passing (and his TD to INT ratio) Ross has had one or two interceptions on the WR. Also had a few dropped TDs. Tebow has better protection as well.

3- I don't know why people say he is a running threat. He ain't exactly a Mike Vick. Sure he is tough and fights for tough yards but that doesn't mean he is a good running threat. He's such a good running threat he projects to an NFL fullback. That should tell you more about his running style than anything else.

4- We have good runningbacks too. I don't see how that has anything to do with anything.

I am not happy with how Ross is throwing the ball but I am not going to pretend his is a failure because he hasn't hit 1000 yards plus through 5 games. That is my entire point. But yet you somehow always seem to never get anything that simple.

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

No Juice, your argument still doesn't work.

1) TeBow is on the # 1 ranked team in the nation, and Jenkins is not.
2) TeBow is surrounded by world class talent, while Jenkins is NOT.
3) TeBow, a Heisman Trophy winner, is a genuine running threat, while Jenkins is NOT.
4) Tebow is backed by a stable of RB's and a depth chart that Jenkins can only dream about.

Like it or not, LA Tech does not have the talent and the depth that Florida has, so it is ludicrous to think we can depend soley on our running game to win football games. Other than against the occassional weak defenses (e.g., Hawaii), that will never happen.

Like it or not, it is absolutely imperative that we be successful throwing the football. It was proven to us last year (when we had a very anemic and limited offense), and it's certainly being DRILLED into our thick heads again THIS year. If you want to win, we've GOT to throw the ball!! Please GET THE MESSSAGE!


HD

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I think you forgot one thing, Tebow is 5-0. We are not. If we were we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Originally Posted by GonzoDawg

I think you forgot one thing, Tebow is 5-0. We are not. If we were we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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I think you don't know HD that well. We could go undefeated and win a national championship and he would still complain we aren't throwing for enough yards.

Jenkins in 2009 has a rating of 119.46. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Kubik in 2005.

Jenkins in 2009 has a completion percentage of 59.5%. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Luke McCown in 2000 (his freshman season).

My only concern is other coaches would have let their backups in games to "just see what they could do" or "add a different spark". It is very common for coaches to do this who are losing games and the QB is clearly struggling.

Dooley REFUSES to even think of letting another QB in the game...

What are the stats on sacks? Look, whatever Ross's numbers are, he's not getting it done. No, he's not alone because there are lots of positions that aren't getting it done. Unfortunately for him, his position is the most important on the field. I'm not saying he shouldn't start, I'm just saying that we need to get some other guys in as well. Cameron should get at least 2 series against NMSU. Their pass rush is soft and it'd be a great game to get him some experience.

Dooley and crew can't continue to do the same thing and expect different results.

He put Colby Cameron in at the end of the Nicholls State game when things were well under control. Didn't he have issues even holding on to the snap?

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Originally Posted by zharkins

He put Colby Cameron in at the end of the Nicholls State game when things were well under control. Didn't he have issues even holding on to the snap?

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I don't know. I can see that he only threw three passes. Junk time PT is great, but it isn't a good gauge for how a player will perform in a normal game situation. One series isn't enough for a QB to get into the groove of the offense.

I'm hoping we'll give someone else a legitimate chance to play this weekend...it's the perfect time.

Yes put another QB in with starters! That would make a difference... I would think. Its hard to judge when a back up is put in with 3rd string.

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Jenkins in 2009 has a rating of 119.46. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Kubik in 2005.

Jenkins in 2009 has a completion percentage of 59.5%. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Luke McCown in 2000 (his freshman season).

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You have to admit that that the majority of Ross' completions are VERY short throws. He has yet to have shown that he can be consistently accurate with his deep or mid-range passes. That's what was so disturbing about the Nevada performance--he looked as though he CANNOT make those throws. He can all the time in the world, but if he can't make the throw--it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Didn't he have issues even holding on to the snap?

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That one was on Dawgzilla - the sound system went beserk and scared the bejezzers out of everyone in the stadium

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Originally Posted by boxerdog

You have to admit that that the majority of Ross' completions are VERY short throws. He has yet to have shown that he can be consistently accurate with his deep or mid-range passes. That's what was so disturbing about the Nevada performance--he looked as though he CANNOT make those throws. He can all the time in the world, but if he can't make the throw--it doesn't matter.

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My question is do you think that is because the WRs can't run better longer routes or because the OL can't get enough protection?

I find myself agree that Jenkins isn't getting the job done but I am not ready to argue any other QB other than Doak can do any better right now. And I don't see any way we pull the redshirt on Doak.

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Originally Posted by Juice752

My question is do you think that is because the WRs can't run better longer routes or because the OL can't get enough protection?

I find myself agree that Jenkins isn't getting the job done but I am not ready to argue any other QB other than Doak can do any better right now. And I don't see any way we pull the redshirt on Doak.

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The throws I'm referring to happened with our receivers BEHIND the defenders (by a couple of steps) and Ross threw it in FRONT of the defenders (by several yards). The ball was floated out there and was simply poorly placed. Personally, I don't think it's as much a matter of arm strength as I do mechanics. Ross tends to wind up on his longer throws. If he has to throw quickly, he can't get it out there. In the Spring, I noticed Cameron has the arm strength to "flick" the ball on a line. I'm interested in seeing Colby make some more long throws.

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Jenkins in 2009 has a rating of 119.46. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Kubik in 2005.

Jenkins in 2009 has a completion percentage of 59.5%. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Luke McCown in 2000 (his freshman season).

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Oh...okay. So, let the record show, YOU and JUICE think everything is FINE with our QB. :icon_roll: (What in the world do people like this possibly do for a living? It's obvious they aren't results oriented!)


HD

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Originally Posted by Juice752

My question is do you think that is because the WRs can't run better longer routes or because the OL can't get enough protection?

I find myself agree that Jenkins isn't getting the job done but I am not ready to argue any other QB other than Doak can do any better right now. And I don't see any way we pull the redshirt on Doak.

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Why would you pull the red shirt off DR? Why wouldn't you AT LEAST see if the other QB's can play FIRST??? Geeez....:icon_roll: We haven't even seen them play.


HD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Jenkins in 2009 has a rating of 119.46. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Kubik in 2005.

Jenkins in 2009 has a completion percentage of 59.5%. The last season a Tech QB had higher than that?
Luke McCown in 2000 (his freshman season).

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So what you are saying is he is better than Zac Champion?? Or Donald Allen??

Congrats, lets give him the Heisman.

Tebow 309 net yards rushing for 5 td's/777 yards passsing for 7 td's/2 ints/ 55 of 84

Jenkins 3 net yards rushing 0 td's/888 yards passing for 3 td's/3 ints/ 78 of 131

This is a silly discussion.

Cameron was terrible when he got in against Nicholls, he could not throw the ball better than Jenkins in any world. Give Jenkins some confidence, let Doak red shirt so we can have him for longer. Throwing in a new quarterback will not turn things around overnight.

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Originally Posted by TruDawg

Cameron was terrible when he got in against Nicholls, he could not throw the ball better than Jenkins in any world.

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He threw the ball THREE times...just for clarity.

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Originally Posted by TruDawg

Cameron was terrible when he got in against Nicholls, he could not throw the ball better than Jenkins in any world. Give Jenkins some confidence, let Doak red shirt so we can have him for longer. Throwing in a new quarterback will not turn things around overnight.

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why not?

At the very least, we should have put someone else in in the 4th at Nevada.......What the hell are we going to do if Jenkins goes down?? We will be so unprepared if that happens.

We can bitch all we want, steel cranium is not budging.

Did you read what Coach Mick posted? You start with a live arm and coach a kid to be a QB. Cameron is the only live arm currently available.

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

Did you read what Coach Mick posted? You start with a live arm and coach a kid to be a QB. Cameron is the only live arm currently available.

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But how much good can come from trying to coach the kid mid season. These are the same things we have come across already. Do we have the talent around our QB to keep us afloat against NMSU, USU, and Idaho while he learns to play. I am afraid we would get our tails handed to us worse if our backup guys aren't ready.

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

He threw the ball THREE times...just for clarity.

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Yea, but on one he looked like he was playing dodge ball, he definitely got the receiver out because he nailed him in the knee... from about 10 feet away. It was a good throw, if he was trying to avoid a catch.

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Originally Posted by Bigdog13

So what you are saying is he is better than Zac Champion?? Or Donald Allen??

Congrats, lets give him the Heisman.

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Sorry......but no can do. The Heisman Trophy will go to Barak Obama this year. :D


HD

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Originally Posted by TruDawg

Give Jenkins some confidence, let Doak red shirt so we can have him for longer. Throwing in a new quarterback will not turn things around overnight.

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Huh? Jenkins has already started 13 games in his Tech career. Just how many starts does he need to finally get "some confidence"?

Over the years I've learned that no matter how bad things get at Tech, there's ALWAYS going to be a small faction of fans (like you) who are simply in denial to the finish. They are deathly afraid of change. Simply put, they would prefer to continue losing than to simply make a personnel change. We saw it with Jack Bicknell's firing. There were people just like you defending JBIII on this board right up to the day he was finally fired. :icon_roll: I guess it's an "engineering" personality thing.


HD

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Originally Posted by techman05

But how much good can come from trying to coach the kid mid season. These are the same things we have come across already. Do we have the talent around our QB to keep us afloat against NMSU, USU, and Idaho while he learns to play. I am afraid we would get our tails handed to us worse if our backup guys aren't ready.

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Granted, the QB situation this year is a screwed-up mess, which should be lain directly at the feet of DD. But the good that can come from trying to coach the kid mid season is that the team sees the coaches continuing to seek ways to win games rather than seeking ways not to lose them; they see that anyone can and will be replaced for the betterment of the team; and the team may be energized by an effort to shake up what's not working. If the results on the field do not improve because of mistakes by a new QB, at least we lose by inexperience rather than inability and don't think recruits can't see the difference between the two!

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Originally Posted by Juice752

And HD still doesn't get it. You're argument is 800 yards through 5 games is terrible. Tebow doesn't even have 800 yards through 5 games. Then again it isn't like it matters because you will say our passing game sucks as long as we aren't throwing for 400 yards a game...with a QB from Texas.

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Wow.... Bret. You're my boy and all, but.... You've said some pretty silly things over the years, but this is the dumbest point you've ever tried to argue.

With the exception of 1 game, we've been a THROWING TEAM.

Tebow throws 17 times a game, Ross' thrown a little over 26 times a game (statistically)

Tebow's rushed for over 300 yards and 5 TD's, Ross' rushed for 3 yards and 0 TD's.

Taking out both of their D1-AA games, Ross' average QB rating is 60.9, and Tebow's average rating is 102.7


You're not an idiot, so please stop playing one on the internet.

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

Granted, the QB situation this year is a screwed-up mess, which should be lain directly at the feet of DD. But the good that can come from trying to coach the kid mid season is that the team sees the coaches continuing to seek ways to win games rather than seeking ways not to lose them; they see that anyone can and will be replaced for the betterment of the team; and the team may be energized by an effort to shake up what's not working. If the results on the field do not improve because of mistakes by a new QB, at least we lose by inexperience rather than inability and don't think recruits can't see the difference between the two!

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very well said, LFR.

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

Oh...okay. So, let the record show, YOU and JUICE think everything is FINE with our QB. :icon_roll: (What in the world do people like this possibly do for a living? It's obvious they aren't results oriented!)


HD

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All I am trying to point out with the stats is that he is no worse than Kubik or Champion, but he is certainly no Rattay or McCown (and never will be). It is just that we most likely have Joe Danna, Donald Allen, and Brian Stallworth backing up Jenkins and we love to play "one of these days" with those type of guys.

I think our QB play is sub par at best...but this isn't the freaking NFL where we could trade Duplessis, Livas, and our #1 pick next year for a good QB. I'm saying I think Ross can do just enough to get us to another bowl and I think any other QB on this roster would take at the very least a few games to get comfortable. At this point in the season, it is too late to make the change if a bowl game is still your goal. I also think that we don't score enough points or beat other teams badly enough to put a backup QB in for a few series and risk turning the ball over and losing the game.

If we lose 2 out of the next 3, it is time to start thinking about next year and Ross will be giving signals from the sideline to finish out his season, but at this point, the odds are much better to stick with Ross.

Why isn't anyone demanding that Dooley bring in the 2nd string offensive line for a few series next week since the first string hasn't been performing well? Maybe they could do better? Of course not. We know the coaches watch them everyday in practice and even if they aren't performing well, they know it will go from bad to worse in a heartbeat if they start putting in backups. Posters just say they should "step it up". But for some reason we want to throw some poor kid out there to get killed at QB who isn't anywhere close to ready.

Our QB position is what it is and Ross gives us the best chance to win at this moment. This is just like when it is 4th and 7 at the 50 yard line and the fans boo because the coach won't go for it. We want to imagine that the 30% chance of making it outweighs the 70% chance of giving the opponent a short field and an almost certain touchdown.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocMarvin362

Wow.... Bret. You're my boy and all, but.... You've said some pretty silly things over the years, but this is the dumbest point you've ever tried to argue.

With the exception of 1 game, we've been a THROWING TEAM.

Tebow throws 17 times a game, Ross' thrown a little over 26 times a game (statistically)

Tebow's rushed for over 300 yards and 5 TD's, Ross' rushed for 3 yards and 0 TD's.

Taking out both of their D1-AA games, Ross' average QB rating is 60.9, and Tebow's average rating is 102.7


You're not an idiot, so please stop playing one on the internet.

---

Actually, against 1A teams, Ross' rating is 97.9 and Tebow's rating is 159.8, but still, you are right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocMarvin362

Wow.... Bret. You're my boy and all, but.... You've said some pretty silly things over the years, but this is the dumbest point you've ever tried to argue.

With the exception of 1 game, we've been a THROWING TEAM.

Tebow throws 17 times a game, Ross' thrown a little over 26 times a game (statistically)

Tebow's rushed for over 300 yards and 5 TD's, Ross' rushed for 3 yards and 0 TD's.

Taking out both of their D1-AA games, Ross' average QB rating is 60.9, and Tebow's average rating is 102.7


You're not an idiot, so please stop playing one on the internet.

---

Doc you know I am not saying Ross is anywhere near Tebow. I am just calling out HD on his idiotic statement regarding passing yards. Ross is not performing now but as I have said time and time again, blaming Ross and demanding a QB change will not get us anywhere this season. Ross is good enough to get us to another bowl game this year and I think that is better than anyone else on the team.

Oh and we are a running team. And it didn't help that it took Daniel Porter until the Hawaii game to finally break out of his slump. If we looked like a passing team, that is because we were forced to since Porter wasn't getting the job done and any time you are forced to do something on offense, you are in trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Doc you know I am not saying Ross is anywhere near Tebow. I am just calling out HD on his idiotic statement regarding passing yards. Ross is not performing now but as I have said time and time again, blaming Ross and demanding a QB change will not get us anywhere this season. Ross is good enough to get us to another bowl game this year and I think that is better than anyone else on the team.

Oh and we are a running team. And it didn't help that it took Daniel Porter until the Hawaii game to finally break out of his slump. If we looked like a passing team, that is because we were forced to since Porter wasn't getting the job done and any time you are forced to do something on offense, you are in trouble.

---

Doc was right. You're probably NOT an idiot, so you really need to quit acting like one on the internet. Only a fool would think Ross is playing well enough to get us to a bowl game this year. The way Ross is performing, we'll be VERY lucky to simply beat the same WAC teams that we beat last year. And right now I'd say that's no slam dunk (with Idaho coming on strong, etc...)

Note on Porter: Porter had a "break out" game against Hawaii because he was playing HAWAII. Never mind the fact that Hawaii has ALWAYS been horrible on rush defense. (I guess you forgot that too!)


HD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HogDawg

Doc was right. You're probably NOT an idiot, so you really need to quit acting like one on the internet. Only a fool would think Ross is playing well enough to get us to a bowl game this year. The way Ross is performing, we'll be VERY lucky to simply beat the same WAC teams that we beat last year. And right now I'd say that's no slam dunk (with Idaho coming on strong, etc...)

Note on Porter: Porter had a "break out" game against Hawaii because he was playing HAWAII. Never mind the fact that Hawaii has ALWAYS been horrible on rush defense. (I guess you forgot that too!)


HD

---

Ross got us to a bowl last year. I guess you forgot that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Ross got us to a bowl last year. I guess you forgot that.

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Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Ross needs to show some QB'ing skills before you can expect everyone to be in his camp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Ross got us to a bowl last year. I guess you forgot that.

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And played worse last year than he has this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

And played worse last year than he has this year.

---

Last year means squat. Maybe due to the makeup of the rest of the team THIS YEAR we need more from the QB position than what we did last year. Maybe we need more than a "game manager."

Also since none of you have seen Cameron or Hardin play enough to make a judgment on them it is impossibe to say with certainty that Ross gives us a better shot at a bowl. That is just your best guess.

Some of you act like because Ross started last year as a Soph that we are locked into him as the starting QB for his Jr. and Sr. years as well. It's like you have automatically assumed anyone else would will be worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigdog13

Last year means squat. Maybe due to the makeup of the rest of the team THIS YEAR we need more from the QB position than what we did last year. Maybe we need more than a "game manager."

Also since none of you have seen Cameron or Hardin play enough to make a judgment on them it is impossibe to say with certainty that Ross gives us a better shot at a bowl. That is just your best guess.

Some of you act like because Ross started last year as a Soph that we are locked into him as the starting QB for his Jr. and Sr. years as well. It's like you have automatically assumed anyone else would will be worse.

---

I think you've hit upon the answer BD13, at least as far as the player part of the equation is concerned. I think this team lacks the leadership of last year's team that was provided by Harris and Brown. I thought (hoped) I saw that leadership emerging after the Hawaii game and commented on it. Nevada proved otherwise. Combined with the exposure of the coaching staff's inability to adapt to being defensed somewhat differently than last year and their inability to adapt to specific changes during a game, we get what we've got. At a minimum, a well-coached offensive line, well-coached receivers and a competent QB are required. Since the offensive line and recievers can't suddenly become well-coached, the only one of the three over which any control can be immediately excercised is the QB and I say let's put a "live" arm on the field as often as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

I think you've hit upon the answer BD13, at least as far as the player part of the equation is concerned. I think this team lacks the leadership of last year's team that was provided by Harris and Brown. I thought (hoped) I saw that leadership emerging after the Hawaii game and commented on it. Nevada proved otherwise. Combined with the exposure of the coaching staff's inability to adapt to being defensed somewhat differently than last year and their inability to adapt to specific changes during a game, we get what we've got. At a minimum, a well-coached offensive line, well-coached receivers and a competent QB are required. Since the offensive line and recievers can't suddenly become well-coached, the only one of the three over which any control can be immediately excercised is the QB and I say let's put a "live" arm on the field as often as possible.

---

man, I'm running out of green dot to give you.
Good post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Actually, against 1A teams, Ross' rating is 97.9 and Tebow's rating is 159.8, but still, you are right.

---

Tebow: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player...layerId=183484

Ross: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player...layerId=191074


Juice... HD says dumb things everyday. That doesn't mean that you have to go even lower than him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocMarvin362

Tebow: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player...layerId=183484

Ross: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player...layerId=191074


Juice... HD says dumb things everyday. That doesn't mean that you have to go even lower than him.

---

Weird. Why would ESPN use the NFL QB rating formula when everyone else including the NCAA uses the NCAA passing efficiency rating? They couldn't key in the appropriate formula?

What is crazier is that the overall season number on the same page uses the right formula even though the single games are NFL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

Weird. Why would ESPN use the NFL QB rating formula when everyone else including the NCAA uses the NCAA passing efficiency rating? They couldn't key in the appropriate formula?

What is crazier is that the overall season number on the same page uses the right formula even though the single games are NFL.

---

Interesting.... maybe you could e-mail them that and see if they would fix it.

Anyways, now you know where I was getting my numbers. :icon_wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Ross got us to a bowl last year. I guess you forgot that.

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Do you really think that Ross is going to get us to a bowl game this year playing like he is? Last year is exactly what it is, its last year. THIS YEAR he better step it up for the rest of the season or we wont win 5 games. Ross is a TERRIBLE quarterback. His has a freaking rag arm, he under throws receivers like its going out of style. He prides himself on "checking to the right play?" What the hell? How many "right" plays has he made this year? We will continue to be mediocre until we get a playmaker at the quarterback position. We know Ross isn't a playmaker, so why not let someone else get some snaps. You can't judge Cameron on 3 throws so why not try him out? It cant be worse then what Ross is doing. Hell i can go hand the ball off to Porter all day, and under throw my receivers. Im not even gonna comment on the Tebow thing, that is just plain dumb. If you cant see the difference between the two then that speaks for itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by techfan01

You can't judge Cameron on 3 throws so why not try him out? It cant be worse then what Ross is doing.

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It could get worse easily. One thing Ross doesn't do is turn the ball over a lot. In fact, he is 38th in the nation in fewest interceptions per attempt. As long as he doesn't turn the ball over, I don't think they make a change. If you remember with Bennett, it wasn't his lack of production that cost him his spot, it was giving the ball away that did him in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

It could get worse easily. One thing Ross doesn't do is turn the ball over a lot. In fact, he is 38th in the nation in fewest interceptions per attempt. As long as he doesn't turn the ball over, I don't think they make a change. If you remember with Bennett, it wasn't his lack of production that cost him his spot, it was giving the ball away that did him in.

---

Constant 3 and outs are pretty much turnovers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris29

Constant 3 and outs are pretty much turnovers.

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Exactly!, and especially if we "shank" one!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris29

Constant 3 and outs are pretty much turnovers.

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We've had 13 3-and-outs in 5 games this season. We had 19 3-and-outs in our first 5 games last season and 49 total 3-and-outs in 13 games last season.

So...

2009 = 2.6 "3-and-outs" per game
2008 = 3.8 "3-and-outs" per game

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

We've had 13 3-and-outs in 5 games this season. We had 19 3-and-outs in our first 5 games last season and 49 total 3-and-outs in 13 games last season.

So...

2009 = 2.6 "3-and-outs" per game
2008 = 3.8 "3-and-outs" per game

---

Ok. You're right. We're clearly a better team this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

Ok. You're right. We're clearly a better team this year.

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That is not what I am saying. I am just saying we have 32% less "3 and outs" per game this year after you agreed with Chris29 that we have "constant 3 and outs". There are many arguments that are to be made about why our passing game is no good, but it seems like people just want to throw a claim against a wall and hope it sticks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

We've had 13 3-and-outs in 5 games this season. We had 19 3-and-outs in our first 5 games last season and 49 total 3-and-outs in 13 games last season.

So...

2009 = 2.6 "3-and-outs" per game
2008 = 3.8 "3-and-outs" per game

---

If our first five games, we had played MSU, Kansas, and Boise.

Numbers without context can be made to say whatever you'd like them to.

We're not getting it done on O this year (we didn't get it done on O last year either, so I'm not quite sure why last years numbers mean anything).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

If our first five games, we had played MSU, Kansas, and Boise.

Numbers without context can be made to say whatever you'd like them to.

---

The 2008 full year rate was the same as the first 5 game rate.

Jenkins has shown to be very good at the short routes and swing passes, he has also thrown some pretty good midrange balls. To the point, however, he has not shown that he can: throw under pressure, throw on the run, or throw accurate deep balls. Those weaknesses were glaring in the Nevada game. If he can show that he can do either of those three against NMSU--fine. My thing is, I want to see SOMEBODY throw the dang ball downfield! Our receivers our open--just get them the flippin' ball!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

If our first five games, we had played MSU, Kansas, and Boise.

Numbers without context can be made to say whatever you'd like them to.

We're not getting it done on O this year (we didn't get it done on O last year either, so I'm not quite sure why last years numbers mean anything).

---

Thank you. I just got too weary to set that forth to Zharkins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zharkins

It could get worse easily. One thing Ross doesn't do is turn the ball over a lot. In fact, he is 38th in the nation in fewest interceptions per attempt. As long as he doesn't turn the ball over, I don't think they make a change. If you remember with Bennett, it wasn't his lack of production that cost him his spot, it was giving the ball away that did him in.

---

Is that what we have come too? Talking about fewest interceptions per attempt? Good lord with all the short routes we run it should be better then that. The point is we are 2-3, we are struggling, and Ross simply isn't performing. Try someone new and see if we can get a spark going on offense. He can't stretch the field at all. And I'm not sure it can get any worse, but it could a get a LOT better. He looks like a freaking JV quarterback out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by johnnylightnin

If our first five games, we had played MSU, Kansas, and Boise.

Numbers without context can be made to say whatever you'd like them to.

We're not getting it done on O this year (we didn't get it done on O last year either, so I'm not quite sure why last years numbers mean anything).

---

Meanwhile we've played Auburn, Navy, and Nevada in our first 5 this year...

The numbers don't mean anything. Just a little splash of reality. Most people feel that Ross has gotten worse when he really hasn't. Just hasn't shown as big of an increase as we were hoping for.

Don't let him bait you into a response JL. It's no use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LookingForResults

Don't let him bait you into a response JL. It's no use.

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What is that supposed to mean? Honestly I don't see why so many of you are getting your panties in a wad about the stuff I said. I haven't disagreed with anyone except HD in his point that throwing for 800 yards in 5 games is terrible. Everyone else thought I was implying either Ross is a great QB or that I think he is anywhere as good as Tebow.

Ross last year is slightly better than Ross this year. Difference is instead of getting a win against MSU we lost to Auburn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juice752

Ross last year is slightly better than Ross this year. Difference is instead of getting a win against MSU we lost to Auburn.

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I think there are a few more differences. For whatever reason, this O needs Ross to play a bigger role. I don't know if its that DCs have more to gameplan on or what, but we need more production out of the QB if our run game is going to carry us like it did last year. The schedule is tougher...we've still got Boise and LSU and a decent Fresno to play.

I really don't think you and I are that far apart in our thinking. The biggest difference is that you trust the coaches decision to stick with Ross instead of giving the other guys a shot in the game. Personally, I don't see that there will be a huge production drop off with the other guys, so, talent being equal (which I don't necessarily think is the case), I'd play the younger guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boxerdog

Jenkins has shown to be very good at the short routes and swing passes, he has also thrown some pretty good midrange balls. To the point, however, he has not shown that he can: throw under pressure, throw on the run, or throw accurate deep balls. Those weaknesses were glaring in the Nevada game. If he can show that he can do either of those three against NMSU--fine. My thing is, I want to see SOMEBODY throw the dang ball downfield! Our receivers our open--just get them the flippin' ball!

---

And the most sickening part of it is that our coaches practically refused to call the types of passes that he CAN make. :shocked2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian96

And the most sickening part of it is that our coaches practically refused to call the types of passes that he CAN make. :shocked2:

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I agree. Our gameplan has not fit our personnel in any of our losses. In the wins, the other team was just too weak to make our gameplan matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juice752

What is that supposed to mean? Honestly I don't see why so many of you are getting your panties in a wad about the stuff I said. I haven't disagreed with anyone except HD in his point that throwing for 800 yards in 5 games is terrible. Everyone else thought I was implying either Ross is a great QB or that I think he is anywhere as good as Tebow.

Ross last year is slightly better than Ross this year. Difference is instead of getting a win against MSU we lost to Auburn.

---

It's just that this last year, this year stuff is irrelevent. We were very fortunate last year the way things fell into place and while Jenkins was better than the GT transfer he was not the reason for the success. Last year was the result of a few timely special teams plays, good team leadership by two graduated seniors and failure by our conference opponents to recognize our complete lack of a vertcal passing game. Our QB was bad then (just not as bad as his predesessor) and he is bad now. We wouldn't have won with him over the course of entire season last year, just as now. I understand he's likable and I'm confident that he'll have a full and happy adult life. He just has no talent as a QB!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juice752

Meanwhile we've played Auburn, Navy, and Nevada in our first 5 this year...

The numbers don't mean anything. Just a little splash of reality. Most people feel that Ross has gotten worse when he really hasn't. Just hasn't shown as big of an increase as we were hoping for.

---

Nevada had the worst pass defense in the nation last season. They have a good offense, but there's no excuse for not putting up points against their defense. Had Livas not returned the opening kick to the 15, and Porter not broken 50+ yard run, we probably get shut out by a defense that is mediocre at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zharkins

We've had 13 3-and-outs in 5 games this season. We had 19 3-and-outs in our first 5 games last season and 49 total 3-and-outs in 13 games last season.

So...

2009 = 2.6 "3-and-outs" per game
2008 = 3.8 "3-and-outs" per game

---

Zach,

What are the numbers for home versus away and wins versus losses? I think that tells the tale better. Take out Hawaii and Nicholls St.; what does it look like. I expect that he will be decent today because we are at home against a lesser opponent. Jenkins can't win us a game once we are down. That is going to hold us back against above average oppenents.

.........because when Cameron came in the game and through a Jenkins like pass, I actually looked at my wife and said, "Way to go Jenkins!" To which she replied, "That's not even him." Sorry, I didn't know we put him in at the beginning of the 4th and when he threw that pass at our WR's feet, I couldn't see any difference in their passing. I had to leave because my little boy was losing it. Did it get any better after that pass?

Colby did alright. The over-the-shoulder throw to Mitchell was a thing of beauty (granted, 5 yards in the air beauty). I wanted to see us run more with him, but he looks competent.

Jenks didn't do anything today that convinced he can hurl the ball downfield. Seriously, can y'all name ONE pass that was exceptional?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by techman05

.........because when Cameron came in the game and through a Jenkins like pass, I actually looked at my wife and said, "Way to go Jenkins!" To which she replied, "That's not even him." Sorry, I didn't know we put him in at the beginning of the 4th and when he threw that pass at our WR's feet, I couldn't see any difference in their passing. I had to leave because my little boy was losing it. Did it get any better after that pass?

---

I cannot believe people are comparing the second series EVER for Cameron to the performance of someone with 3 years' playing experience, 4 years in the program, and 14 starts under his belt. And if our #2 struggled a bit in mop up duty in his second series EVER, all the more reason to get him more experience. Because he is just one twisted knee or jammed shoulder away from being the #1 guy.

Jenkins should absolutely continue to start. But when you are ahead by 4 possessions, there is no reason you can't start working your backup in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boxerdog

Jenks didn't do anything today that convinced he can hurl the ball downfield. Seriously, can y'all name ONE pass that was exceptional?

---

I do agree. There were several passes that were deeper than 15 yards that the receiver either had to stop to make a play, come back to the ball, or it was badly underthrown and uncatchable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by techman05

I do agree. There were several passes that were deeper than 15 yards that the receiver either had to stop to make a play, come back to the ball, or it was badly underthrown and uncatchable.

---

Jenkins played today like he always plays. He did a lot of things well--most notably actually using his legs for the first time this year. He also continued to struggle throwing. He's our starter because he is experienced and he is good at calling audibles.

Brian, my point is, at this point we are getting the same thing out of Cameron as we are Jenkins. There is not time during the middle of a season to teach a player. Cameron would have to get the rust off if we were really going to use him. He would have to be put in big game situations to really see where he is. If we do that, there is just as much chance he will mess up as there is with RJ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by techman05

Brian, my point is, at this point we are getting the same thing out of Cameron as we are Jenkins. There is not time during the middle of a season to teach a player. Cameron would have to get the rust off if we were really going to use him. He would have to be put in big game situations to really see where he is. If we do that, there is just as much chance he will mess up as there is with RJ.

---

Dude, we had to bring in Taylor Bennett to run the offense for half a year last year because Zac Champion was "our guy" the year before. Just because someone has earned the STARTING spot doesn't mean you never see the #2 guy.

I'm not as concerned at getting Cameron snaps so he can prove that RJ sucks. I am concerned about having more than one person who can run our offense in a real game. I am also concerned that our coaching staff doesn't like to use real games to develop QBs.

With an opponent like NMSU, we should have PLANNED to be working Cameron in early and often. We could afford to have a weak series sprinkled in here and there if Cameron struggled, but in the long run our roster is STRONGER when we have more than 1 QB who can manage our offense in real games. Every other school in the country does this when they get ahead of anemic offenses. Even UF did this a good bit at the beginning of the season. Good thing, too, since they had to rely on their back up when Tebow went down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian96

I cannot believe people are comparing the second series EVER for Cameron to the performance of someone with 3 years' playing experience, 4 years in the program, and 14 starts under his belt. And if our #2 struggled a bit in mop up duty in his second series EVER, all the more reason to get him more experience. Because he is just one twisted knee or jammed shoulder away from being the #1 guy.

Jenkins should absolutely continue to start. But when you are ahead by 4 possessions, there is no reason you can't start working your backup in.

---

On Jenkins' first series in real game action--it was against Boise State, he telegraphed a pass in the flats and it got picked. I didn't think Cameron struggled at all. I just wanna see SOMEBODY who can throw to the ball down-field. We're gonna need that threat--if we want to win on the road.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by boxerdog

On Jenkins' first series in real game action--it was against Boise State, he telegraphed a pass in the flats and it got picked. I didn't think Cameron struggled at all. I just wanna see SOMEBODY who can throw to the ball down-field. We're gonna need that threat--if we want to win on the road.

---

That's true and Cameron at least presents the threat.