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What is Systemic Racism?
A lot has been posted about the ambiguity of the protests by various NFL players. There are many different answers to the question "what are they protesting", but most can be categorized as racial inequality. I began to read more about this topic after the highly publicized deaths of black men at the hands of police. I was less interested in assigning blame for those particular events (they are certainly not monolithic) than I was at understanding the reaction to these events. I'm not just talking about the reaction of the typical leftists crap stirrers on cable news...as they are as inflammatory and biased as the typical right-wing crap stirrers. I had dear friends that were deeply hurt and concerned. I had friends who had adopted children of different races that incredibly disheartened and even scared about the prospects of their black child having to grow-up where he mighty be penalized for the color of his skin.
Anyway, that all led me to look into the topic here. I think you get a better view of someone's argument when you let them make it. . .as opposed to letting someone who disagrees summarize it. Our culture prefers a "safe summary" to actually engaging in the argument presented by the opposing side.
All that said, the link shared below seems clearly biased, but it also seems to be true to the academic sociological understanding of the issue. I don't agree with all the conclusions or premises, but if you want to understand why there is such an uproar in the black community, I think this may be a helpful thing to read. Again, not to convince you that their argument is right, but so that you will understand what their argument is.
https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
A lot has been posted about the ambiguity of the protests by various NFL players. There are many different answers to the question "what are they protesting", but most can be categorized as racial inequality. I began to read more about this topic after the highly publicized deaths of black men at the hands of police. I was less interested in assigning blame for those particular events (they are certainly not monolithic) than I was at understanding the reaction to these events. I'm not just talking about the reaction of the typical leftists crap stirrers on cable news...as they are as inflammatory and biased as the typical right-wing crap stirrers. I had dear friends that were deeply hurt and concerned. I had friends who had adopted children of different races that incredibly disheartened and even scared about the prospects of their black child having to grow-up where he mighty be penalized for the color of his skin.
Anyway, that all led me to look into the topic here. I think you get a better view of someone's argument when you let them make it. . .as opposed to letting someone who disagrees summarize it. Our culture prefers a "safe summary" to actually engaging in the argument presented by the opposing side.
All that said, the link shared below seems clearly biased, but it also seems to be true to the academic sociological understanding of the issue. I don't agree with all the conclusions or premises, but if you want to understand why there is such an uproar in the black community, I think this may be a helpful thing to read. Again, not to convince you that their argument is right, but so that you will understand what their argument is.
https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565
Man, that is a depressing summation. I do believe that is what the most extreme members of BLM and similar groups believe.
I can share your friends concerns about adopted children of different races. It's a discussion my wife and I have had as we have tried to adopt. I am concerned that my children would be faced with racism and how I would handle that and I'm also concerned that they might actually believe something like the article you posted. If I believed that I don't think I could stay in this country and I don't know why any person of color would either.
"a social system that had racist economic inequality built into its foundation"
"laws and political and economic policies that work to reproduce a social system that is racist and has racist outcomes"
"a serious and well-documented problem of routine discrimination in all areas of life, and the frequent dehumanization and marginalization of POC"
"shorter life spans, limited income and wealth potential, impacted family structure as a result of mass incarceration of Blacks and Latinos, limited access to educational resources and political participation, state-sanctioned killing by police, and the psychological, emotional, and community tolls of living with less, and being seen as “less than."
"White elites, often unconsciously, work to perpetuate systemic racism via politics, law, educational institutions, the economy, and via racist representations and underrepresentation of people of color in mass media. "
"Feagin's theory, and all of the research he and many other social scientists have conducted over 100 years, illustrates that racism is in fact built into the foundation of U.S. society and that it has over time come to infuse all aspects of it. It is present in our laws, our politics, our economy; in our social institutions; and in how we think and act, whether consciously or subconsciously. It's all around us and inside of us, and for this reason, resistance to racism must also be everywhere if we are to combat it."
Why would anyone choose to live in a place like this?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
I wouldn't say it is the "most extreme" members of the BLM movement believe. These are pretty traditional beliefs for people that are study in this area. The underpinnings of these beliefs go at least back into the 1980s when critical race theory first started to become a popular framework in the social sciences field.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
detltu
Man, that is a depressing summation. I do believe that is what the most extreme members of BLM and similar groups believe.
I can share your friends concerns about adopted children of different races. It's a discussion my wife and I have had as we have tried to adopt. I am concerned that my children would be faced with racism and how I would handle that and I'm also concerned that they might actually believe something like the article you posted. If I believed that I don't think I could stay in this country and I don't know why any person of color would either.
"
a social system that had racist economic inequality built into its foundation"
"
laws and political and economic policies that work to reproduce a social system that is racist and has racist outcomes"
"
a serious and well-documented problem of routine discrimination in all areas of life, and the frequent dehumanization and marginalization of POC"
"
shorter life spans, limited income and wealth potential, impacted family structure as a result of mass incarceration of Blacks and Latinos, limited access to educational resources and political participation, state-sanctioned killing by police, and the psychological, emotional, and community tolls of living with less, and being seen as “less than."
"White elites, often unconsciously, work to perpetuate systemic racism via politics, law, educational institutions, the economy, and via racist representations and underrepresentation of people of color in mass media. "
"Feagin's theory, and all of the research he and many other social scientists have conducted over 100 years, illustrates that racism is in fact built into the foundation of U.S. society and that it has over time come to infuse all aspects of it. It is present in our laws, our politics, our economy; in our social institutions; and in how we think and act, whether consciously or subconsciously. It's all around us and inside of us, and for this reason, resistance to racism must also be everywhere if we are to combat it."
Why would anyone choose to live in a place like this?
I think some of those things sound horrible, but if you break down the claim, it's easier to understand. For instance, at the time of our country's foundation, slave labor was integral to our economy and black people were officially inferior in the eyes of the law...racist economic inequality. The claims hit our ears in an incredibly irritating way, but I think, in context, you can see where the claims come from.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I think some of those things sound horrible, but if you break down the claim, it's easier to understand. For instance, at the time of our country's foundation, slave labor was integral to our economy and black people were officially inferior in the eyes of the law...racist economic inequality. The claims hit our ears in an incredibly irritating way, but I think, in context, you can see where the claims come from.
I don't think anyone would dispute that historically this is a fact. Certainly at the time of our foundation and I can understand where each claim comes from. To say that it is systemic now is a whole other matter. And I don't believe it is one based in fact. The author is talking about today.
I agree a lot of those things sound horrible. They are horrible. I can agree that we still have progress to make, but this seems to ignore all the progress we have made already.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
i think the biggest problem of the "black lives matter" movement is that it is intentionally divisive -- even the name is inherently divisive. if i call my movement black lives matter and you disagree with anything i say, then that implies that you don't think black lives matter. this of course automatically puts them at odds with police and people that support them. if you want to improve the way police interact with the black community, you don't call yourself something that automatically makes you an enemy of the police.
so i have concluded that the people leading that movement are not interested in change -- the only likely outcome of their approach is increased division and mistrust along racial lines, which helps to mobilize their base against their political enemies.
that said, there are some things that seriously need to change about our laws, our justice system, our entitlement system, and the way our police handle potentially dangerous situations. but as long as we are accusing people of being racist we won't get anywhere. instead, let's talk about the specific laws, programs, and policies that lead to bad outcomes and figure out a better way to do things.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Agree completely bob. Their efforts have gotten the attention they wanted. If you truly want change, the protests should stop and we should be hearing about meeting requests to solve problems.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
Agree completely bob. Their efforts have gotten the attention they wanted. If you truly want change, the protests should stop and we should be hearing about meeting requests to solve problems.
They are saying it, you just aren't listening.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
They are saying it, you just aren't listening.
thanks for ASSuming I'm a racist. Pride myself and my family on being the total opposite.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
They are saying it, you just aren't listening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
thanks for ASSuming I'm a racist. Pride myself and my family on being the total opposite.
What?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
thanks for ASSuming I'm a racist. Pride myself and my family on being the total opposite.
What do you do to fight systemic racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What do you do to fight systemic racism?
As far as protesting, marching, or the like, nothing. As far as the way I live, conduct myself, and teach my kids, a lot. It has to start with the individual. Change people 1 by 1. Did you know the Apostle Andrew was responsible for bringing Peter to Christ? He almost always brought people 1 at a time. Sorry if that isn't what you are looking for, but that's how I live. Treat others as you want to be treated. See comments made this week by Dabo.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
As far as protesting, marching, or the like, nothing. As far as the way I live, conduct myself, and teach my kids, a lot. It has to start with the individual. Change people 1 by 1. Did you know the Apostle Andrew was responsible for bringing Peter to Christ? He almost always brought people 1 at a time. Sorry if that isn't what you are looking for, but that's how I live. Treat others as you want to be treated. See comments made this week by Dabo.
What do you teach your kids or others about systemic racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
As far as protesting, marching, or the like, nothing. As far as the way I live, conduct myself, and teach my kids, a lot. It has to start with the individual. Change people 1 by 1. Did you know the Apostle Andrew was responsible for bringing Peter to Christ? He almost always brought people 1 at a time. Sorry if that isn't what you are looking for, but that's how I live. Treat others as you want to be treated. See comments made this week by Dabo.
I'd be interested to get your take on Timothy Keller's Generous Justice.
I'm only part of the way through it, but his main point is that Christians are required to work toward justice for the oppressed. He hasn't worked it all out yet, but I'll be interested to see what he says.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What do you teach your kids or others about systemic racism?
How far does this rabbit hole go? What proof do you need? When my kids see a minority being mistreated, I teach them it isn't right. When my kids read history books that still, thank God, tell about slavery, I tell them how we know that it isn't right to treat ANYONE as subhuman. When my kids play at school or in the neighborhood, I teach them that every kid deserves to be a part of your game. Not off topic, but my son is often told he can't play by other kids because he is smaller and not as good at sports as others. I am thankful for teachers who advocate for him and tell others to let him play so he can get better and then they will want him on their team. I teach my kids that they shouldn't leave others out or ignore the needs of others and they understand because they know how that feels.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I'd be interested to get your take on Timothy Keller's
Generous Justice.
I'm only part of the way through it, but his main point is that Christians are required to work toward justice for the oppressed. He hasn't worked it all out yet, but I'll be interested to see what he says.
I will have to read it.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What do you do to fight systemic racism?
I don't do anything or honestly know what to do? What do you do or suggest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What do you teach your kids or others about systemic racism?
I only have one child and I talk to him about racism and the problems it creates. I do not teach him about systemic racism because I think it is nebulous and counter productive.
My son got 3 problems wrong on a math test yesterday. He actually answered all three questions correctly, but the teacher thought his 6 looked like a b in two places (I disagree) and his 5 was just messy I guess. He's in the 3rd grade. It was a subtraction test. There is no mistaking his numbers for anything else within reason. As a parent, your natural reaction is to ask why is the teacher picking on my son. It's the same reaction you get when your kid doesn't start on the soccer team when he is clearly better than little Johnny. Is the coach flirting with Johnny's mom and showing preferential treatment? Is it because I yelled at him the other day in the parking lot? Or is it maybe because my kid sucks on defense?
I am trying to teach my son to recognize the factors that he can control and make changes where he can. He already has a tendency to pass blame as his first instinct. I don't think that is a good thing for him. Something like systemic racism would represent an "easy out" and might prevent someone from looking at their own responsibility for an action. I don't think that is healthy at a young age.
He's probably a little young to learn about systemic racism yet anyway. That's a heavy burden to put on a kid. For now I'm content to just teach him about the evils of racism and how to recognize it and respond to it.
I will pose the question to our two resident experts on systemic racism. What laws do you think represent systemic racism and how would you change them? What other actions do you think are some of the most important steps to removing the burden of systemic racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
detltu
I don't do anything or honestly know what to do? What do you do or suggest?
I only have one child and I talk to him about racism and the problems it creates. I do not teach him about systemic racism because I think it is nebulous and counter productive.
My son got 3 problems wrong on a math test yesterday. He actually answered all three questions correctly, but the teacher thought his 6 looked like a b in two places (I disagree) and his 5 was just messy I guess. He's in the 3rd grade. It was a subtraction test. There is no mistaking his numbers for anything else within reason. As a parent, your natural reaction is to ask why is the teacher picking on my son. It's the same reaction you get when your kid doesn't start on the soccer team when he is clearly better than little Johnny. Is the coach flirting with Johnny's mom and showing preferential treatment? Is it because I yelled at him the other day in the parking lot? Or is it maybe because my kid sucks on defense?
I am trying to teach my son to recognize the factors that he can control and make changes where he can. He already has a tendency to pass blame as his first instinct. I don't think that is a good thing for him. Something like systemic racism would represent an "easy out" and might prevent someone from looking at their own responsibility for an action. I don't think that is healthy at a young age.
He's probably a little young to learn about systemic racism yet anyway. That's a heavy burden to put on a kid. For now I'm content to just teach him about the evils of racism and how to recognize it and respond to it.
I will pose the question to our two resident experts on systemic racism. What laws do you think represent systemic racism and how would you change them? What other actions do you think are some of the most important steps to removing the burden of systemic racism?
Exactly what I was trying to say, but much better.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
The only "systemic" racism is so-called reverse racism.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I'd be interested to get your take on Timothy Keller's
Generous Justice.
I'm only part of the way through it, but his main point is that Christians are required to work toward justice for the oppressed. He hasn't worked it all out yet, but I'll be interested to see what he says.
Sounds like a good book from the descriptions. I agree that Christians are called to help the poor and the oppressed. That was pretty clear in the Beatitudes. I also think we should all stand up and fight for justice.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
detltu
Sounds like a good book from the descriptions. I agree that Christians are called to help the poor and the oppressed. That was pretty clear in the Beatitudes. I also think we should all stand up and fight for justice.
I just read this quote over my lunch break and I thought it was great...not exactly pertinent here, but this seems like the best place to share it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Keller
"In Western society these sets of concerns have often been split off from one another. In fact, each of America's two main political parties has built its platform on one of these sets of ethical prescriptions to the near exclusion of the other. Conservatism stresses the importance of personal morality, especially the importance of traditional sexual mores and hard work, and feels that liberal charges of racism and social justice are overblown. On the other hand, liberalism stresses social justice, and considers conservative emphases on moral virtue to be prudish and psychologically harmful. Each side, of course, thinks the other side is smug and self-righteous."
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I just read this quote over my lunch break and I thought it was great...not exactly pertinent here, but this seems like the best place to share it:
[/FONT][/COLOR]
I think that is a very good summation. While there are gray areas, those are clearly points of emphasis.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
How far does this rabbit hole go? What proof do you need? When my kids see a minority being mistreated, I teach them it isn't right. When my kids read history books that still, thank God, tell about slavery, I tell them how we know that it isn't right to treat ANYONE as subhuman. When my kids play at school or in the neighborhood, I teach them that every kid deserves to be a part of your game. Not off topic, but my son is often told he can't play by other kids because he is smaller and not as good at sports as others. I am thankful for teachers who advocate for him and tell others to let him play so he can get better and then they will want him on their team. I teach my kids that they shouldn't leave others out or ignore the needs of others and they understand because they know how that feels.
Just curious what you meant. Addressing overt racism is a good start, but it doesn't really address systemic racism.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
The only "systemic" racism is so-called reverse racism.
Yeah, you basically are systemic racism personified.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Just curious what you meant. Addressing overt racism is a good start, but it doesn't really address systemic racism.
Understand. Sorry I assumed malice. I guess I was thinking systemic and overt were interchangeable. Not well versed in the terms. Really, systemic would require generations to work out, right?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
techman05
Understand. Sorry I assumed malice. I guess I was thinking systemic and overt were interchangeable. Not well versed in the terms. Really, systemic would require generations to work out, right?
It is hard to imagine systemic racism to be ameliorated in a single generation, but I am not an expert.
I think there is general awareness of the issue, but I don't think it is widely understood or fully appreciated. My suggestion is to temporarily put your beliefs and worldview on the shelf and imagine how your life would be different from cradle to grave if you were black. How would your experiences be different? How might your behavior be different? I suspect you know some people that are racist. How would your relationship with them change? How would your experience in grade school and high school be different? What would your peer group have been? Would you have gone to the same college? Pursued the same degree? Had the same job opportunities? Married the same woman? How would your kids experiences be different? Would all of your experiences with law enforcement been the same? Would you react the same way to Ferguson, charlottesville? Kaepernick? Would you live in the same neighborhood? Have the same friends? Have the same hobbies? Have the same political views? Go to the same church?
No need to answer, but these are things I think everyone has to think about before you can really be empathetic about racial inequality. And not just answer the questions but truly imagine yourself in those moments and how those experiences feel.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Yeah, you basically are systemic racism personified.
I have a lot of "isms." But then, we all do.
But, that's not what "systemic" refers to. So, name the "system" that causes racism (as you define it). Go....
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
The only "systemic" racism is so-called reverse racism.
Agreed. And I truly believe that there are more racist in the black community today vs. racist in the white community.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Agreed. And I truly believe that there are more racist in the black community today vs. racist in the white community.
I did not want to comment on this for fear of possibly being on the same page as you-know-who.
It is possible for racism to exist without anyone attempting to be a racist. For instance, if a university or country club has a policy of allowing children or relatives of alumni or previous members to have preferential treatment to become admitted, there is a residual racism that exists there if they excluded certain races from becoming involved in the past.
Many jobs are obtained by knowing someone knowing the person doing the hiring (or knowing the person doing the hiring). Given that neighborhoods were largely segregated in the past and certain races were unlikely to be given admission to a university, it is unlikely that a person of those races would have that kind of access to those opportunities.
In a perfect meritocracy none of this would matter because it would not matter who you knew or to whom you were related. But there are enough cases where special treatment is given based on things that happened when there was limited or no access to opportunity.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
I did not want to comment on this for fear of possibly being on the same page as you-know-who.
It is possible for racism to exist without anyone attempting to be a racist. For instance, if a university or country club has a policy of allowing children or relatives of alumni or previous members to have preferential treatment to become admitted, there is a residual racism that exists there if they excluded certain races from becoming involved in the past.
Many jobs are obtained by knowing someone knowing the person doing the hiring (or knowing the person doing the hiring). Given that neighborhoods were largely segregated in the past and certain races were unlikely to be given admission to a university, it is unlikely that a person of those races would have that kind of access to those opportunities.
In a perfect meritocracy none of this would matter because it would not matter who you knew or to whom you were related. But there are enough cases where special treatment is given based on things that happened when there was limited or no access to opportunity.
i'm not saying that there are not a lot of things that need to be corrected and improved, but the above post is just wrong.
the fact that statistical differences can be drawn on racial lines does not imply racism. consider this imaginary situation:
group A is 80% black.
group B is 80% white.
group B gets special privileges.
in this situation (which is similar to the examples brought forth above) the privileges enjoyed by the whites in group B does nothing to help the whites in group A. also the blacks in group B have no problem receiving the privileges in question.
disparities along racial lines do not equal racism, and privilege does not equal oppression.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Some of you guys really need to read up on “systemic racism” and white privilege.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
i'm not saying that there are not a lot of things that need to be corrected and improved, but the above post is just wrong.
the fact that statistical differences can be drawn on racial lines does not imply racism. consider this imaginary situation:
group A is 80% black.
group B is 80% white.
group B gets special privileges.
in this situation (which is similar to the examples brought forth above) the privileges enjoyed by the whites in group B does nothing to help the whites in group A. also the blacks in group B have no problem receiving the privileges in question.
disparities along racial lines do not equal racism, and privilege does not equal oppression.
Artie is a black guy. He has an IQ of 150, graduated at the top of his class in high school and scored a near perfect score on his college admissions tests. Unfortunately, the prestigious engineering school he wants to attend during the period of segregation doesn't accept applications from black people, so he goes the community college/HBC route and gets his education.
Bill is a white guy. He has an IQ of 150, graduated at the top of his class in high school and scored a near perfect score on his college admissions tests. He applies and gets accepted to the prestigious engineering school and goes on to have a career with NASA sending chimps into space.
Both Bill and Artie have sons that did not necessarily improve on their gene pool. Bill's son Chip barely makes it through high school and scores poorly on his admission tests. Artie's son Fred does the same. After spending some time getting to know themselves and being players at the local disco, both Bill and Chip decide they will give college a try. They both apply to that same prestigious engineering school and after the admissions office has a good laugh, they accept Bill's son, Chip, because he is the son of an alumni. Fred does not fare so well because his father did not attend the university.
This is residual racism. If the school did not have a policy allowing the children of alumni to attend regardless of how stupid they were, there would be no issues with race at all. But that is not how much of the world works. Now I agree many white applicants with the same aptitude as both sons would also be rejected on the grounds that they do not meet the criteria for being admitted and they did not have a father with that connection, but in those cases it would be the decision or aptitude of their fathers that precluded them attending the university, not their race.
I am not proposing any legislation to fix this. It exists, but it can be overcome with hard work and ambition. What cannot be overcome is what the liberals have done to them by destroying their churches, family units and sense of community.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Some of you guys really need to read up on “systemic racism” and white privilege.
Name the system...
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Name the system...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZb2n-XLRU
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Well, that was pretty dumb.
I do believe there is a Harvard study on police shootings (by a liberal black professor) showing the police shooting issue does not really exist. "Hands up don't shoot" never happened (was witnessed by African Americans). The whole kneeling and BLM thing has been invented by leftist organizations to keep the black community beholden to the very people that are holding them back. It is a red herring.
They are constantly being told by liberals (the one in the video included) that they cannot achieve anything in America because of systemic racism, so they tell them to get comfortable where they are economically and socially and they will take care of them (give them pittances but no real economic power) as long as they vote exclusively for them to maintain their power.
It is the left that has isolated the black community and feeds on their misery. The systemic racism is in the Democrat party, and like a bad drug, they won't have any relief until they are able to give it up.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
Artie is a black guy. He has an IQ of 150, graduated at the top of his class in high school and scored a near perfect score on his college admissions tests. Unfortunately, the prestigious engineering school he wants to attend during the period of segregation doesn't accept applications from black people, so he goes the community college/HBC route and gets his education.
Bill is a white guy. He has an IQ of 150, graduated at the top of his class in high school and scored a near perfect score on his college admissions tests. He applies and gets accepted to the prestigious engineering school and goes on to have a career with NASA sending chimps into space.
Both Bill and Artie have sons that did not necessarily improve on their gene pool. Bill's son Chip barely makes it through high school and scores poorly on his admission tests. Artie's son Fred does the same. After spending some time getting to know themselves and being players at the local disco, both Bill and Chip decide they will give college a try. They both apply to that same prestigious engineering school and after the admissions office has a good laugh, they accept Bill's son, Chip, because he is the son of an alumni. Fred does not fare so well because his father did not attend the university.
This is residual racism. If the school did not have a policy allowing the children of alumni to attend regardless of how stupid they were, there would be no issues with race at all. But that is not how much of the world works. Now I agree many white applicants with the same aptitude as both sons would also be rejected on the grounds that they do not meet the criteria for being admitted and they did not have a father with that connection, but in those cases it would be the decision or aptitude of their fathers that precluded them attending the university, not their race.
I am not proposing any legislation to fix this. It exists, but it can be overcome with hard work and ambition. What cannot be overcome is what the liberals have done to them by destroying their churches, family units and sense of community.
my point is that "residual racism" is not racism. the problem is that bill's son got in based on his dad -- everyone (black and white) suffers due to policies like that.
and to claim that artie's son is the victim of oppression does nothing but cause division and contention. unfortunately, there is nothing we can do now to fix it for artie -- we just need to make sure that what happened to him never happens again to anyone else.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I've given you a couple of weeks to come up with a system, and you can't. And you can't because none exist. Except reverse systemic racism for which there are many examples. And yes, I can name them but I won't. Except as an example the system of "Affirmative Action" which most are at least familiar with.
Like everything else you promote "systemic racism" you libtards advocate is a crock.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
my point is that "residual racism" is not racism. the problem is that bill's son got in based on his dad -- everyone (black and white) suffers due to policies like that.
and to claim that artie's son is the victim of oppression does nothing but cause division and contention. unfortunately, there is nothing we can do now to fix it for artie -- we just need to make sure that what happened to him never happens again to anyone else.
We are talking about “systemic racism” and its corollary “white privilege”. These are not individualized concepts such as individually held beliefs of prejudice or (white guilt). In fact, the very act of attempting to tie the two concepts of prejudice and system racism together is dismissive to the reality of systemic racism/white privilege and perpetuates the “second tier” status that POC face here and elsewhere.
Sure, prejudice remains, but that is not even the main problem that we are talking about. It is the act of pretending that our experiences as white and black Americans that are the same that, in effect, reinforce beliefs that “black culture” are to blame for the very real struggle that POC face. Talking about black culture/breakdown of the family unit/etc sound convincing to white people (and even some black people), but such arguments actually inflict racial stereotypes that fail to account for the very real systemic racism that contributes to the black experience being different from the white privilege we enjoy.
I have had this conversation many times, and I have been on your side of the argument. It takes awhile to start to truly empathize with the plight of POC (at least it did for me). Some of this is an effort to avoid guilt - which is not what you are being asked to do - no guilt is involved. Some is also an affinity to the argument that rural or poor whites also face disadvantage. That is a discussion that we can properly have too - but when you tie it to issue of systemic racism it only serves to perpetuate systemic racism.
Btw, Trump is incapable of undertstanding systemic racism because he has no empathy. He is a psychopath. I don’t expect everyone on BBB to understand either, because there are a few that lack the capacity for true empathy - statistically that has to be true.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
I've given you a couple of weeks to come up with a system, and you can't. And you can't because none exist. Except reverse systemic racism for which there are many examples. And yes, I can name them but I won't. Except as an example the system of "Affirmative Action" which most are at least familiar with.
Like everything else you promote "systemic racism" you libtards advocate is a crock.
You are one of the ones I am referring to. Not sure you are capable of empathy or maybe your empathy quotient is just very low.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Not sure you are capable of empathy or maybe your empathy quotient is just very low.
When you mentioned empathy I thought about grace. I decided to look up some profound stuff regarding empathy and found something really good. It was written by a person named Grace.:D
https://www.gracejudson.com/five-com...about-empathy/
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
There was a question put forth asking whether my experiences would be different growing up as an African American instead of a Caucasian.
If you are black in America, the deck is stacked against you....there is no doubt.
Almost 73% of all non-Hispanic black children in the US are born out of wedlock. I don't know about everyone else, but both of my parents contributed to my moral and emotional development and well being...so I would think that reducing that sphere of influence by half would have a crippling effect on a child. Mom and Dad have become baby momma and baby daddy as being a single mother has become something to be celebrated. This is also happening in the white and Hispanic communities, but the percentages are still much lower.
Along with that, statistics show that children growing up in a single parent home complete fewer years of education than those growing up in a traditional two-parent home. This is a statistical fact and naturally there are exceptions, but it is just one more roadblock to achieving economic success in America.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...arent-families
The church used to be a great source for an extended family and moral upbringing, but now you are labeled a "bitter clinger" if you seek solace there. Once again, this is not unique to the black community, but when you are already at a disadvantage by being brought up in a single parent household, this is just piling on. I think the destruction of the church has a lot to do with why there are so many mass shootings and so much gun violence these days.
Then there are still effects related to the discrimination they endured for hundreds of years, which left them with virtually no economic power. It takes a couple of generations to overcome this kind of thing. I had it pretty easy, but my great grandparents and grandparents were pretty much born with nothing and died that way, and each of them made it a little more possible for my parents to work hard and and pave the way for me to have it as easy as I've had it.
To make matters worse, if you do try to better yourself by going to school and working entry-level jobs, you get labeled as being "too white" or an "uncle Tom" in the black community. Since you are already at the disadvantage of being in a single-parent household and it's just not cool to turn to the church for guidance, peer pressure is king.
And I think the democrat party likes things just the way they are. They have a voting block congregated together in one location they know they can show up and bus to the polling stations for nothing but empty promises and some reassurances that all their ills are caused by "systemic racism".
The deck is certainly stacked against their communities. They suffer and America suffers.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You are one of the ones I am referring to. Not sure you are capable of empathy or maybe your empathy quotient is just very low.
Fact is there is no "systemic racism" against "people of color." Now there is wanton system of discrimination against those white males under the age of 40. In fact, it is further being defined as "Christian, white males under 40." But, even without the religious connotation, people who fit that demographic group are the ONLY ones not "protected by law."
It's pathetic how demographic groups are defined and then labeled as "being a protected class" and thus subject to special treatment. If you look at all these "protected classes" it includes everyone EXCEPT white males under 40. That group composes....I'm not sure, would have to look at census data, but I'm guessing maybe 30% of the overall population....something like that. Whatever it is, it's a "minority" of the population. Now, as a white male over 40 I don't have a lot of protection myself, except the loosely enforced "age discrimination" thingy.
So, stick that systemic crap in your ear!
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Fact is there is no "systemic racism" against "people of color." Now there is wanton system of discrimination against those white males under the age of 40. In fact, it is further being defined as "Christian, white males under 40." But, even without the religious connotation, people who fit that demographic group are the ONLY ones not "protected by law."
It's pathetic how demographic groups are defined and then labeled as "being a protected class" and thus subject to special treatment. If you look at all these "protected classes" it includes everyone EXCEPT white males under 40. That group composes....I'm not sure, would have to look at census data, but I'm guessing maybe 30% of the overall population....something like that. Whatever it is, it's a "minority" of the population. Now, as a white male over 40 I don't have a lot of protection myself, except the loosely enforced "age discrimination" thingy.
So, stick that systemic crap in your ear!
You could solve your empathy defficiency, but it would require you to seek understanding rather than judgment.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Imagine that! More babies born out of wedlock because more women choosing to remain single. Who'd a thunk.
And fewer women choosing to have babies. Well, that's interesting, but those that do are still doing it out of wedlock.
The statistics for poverty and incarceration are directly tied to single parent homes and lack of education. These are fixable.
The white community is dealing with this stuff too. What else could you expect when the Jenner/Kardashian freak show is the new normal.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
Imagine that! More babies born out of wedlock because more women choosing to remain single. Who'd a thunk.
And fewer women choosing to have babies. Well, that's interesting, but those that do are still doing it out of wedlock.
The statistics for poverty and incarceration are directly tied to single parent homes and lack of education. These are fixable.
The white community is dealing with this stuff too. What else could you expect when the Jenner/Kardashian freak show is the new normal.
It is a socioeconomic thing - not a black thing.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/07/w...beats-marriage
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Sounds like we agree on this.
I think focusing on a false narrative (BLM police shootings, etc) and only serves to distract them from achieving economic equality and perpetuates their misery.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
Sounds like we agree on this.
I think focusing on a false narrative (BLM police shootings, etc) and only serves to distract them from achieving economic equality and perpetuates their misery.
I was talking about the babies out of wedlock phenomenon. Why are POC disproportionately in this socioeconomic situation in the first place?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
I was "privileged" to grow up in a home with a female mother and a male father, who made very little money, worked hard to provide for us, and did the best they could. My father came from a large family who had almost nothing growing up. But he had a female mother and a male father in the home with him, who loved their kids and did they best they could. In the small town where I lived, most kids, black and white, had two parents in the home, caring for them. The breakdown of the family then began (and has now reached ridiculously low levels none of us could have ever imagined) and our nation has been on a steady decline ever since.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tech77
I was "privileged" to grow up in a home with a female mother and a male father, who made very little money, worked hard to provide for us, and did the best they could. My father came from a large family who had almost nothing growing up. But he had a female mother and a male father in the home with him, who loved their kids and did they best they could. In the small town where I lived, most kids, black and white, had two parents in the home, caring for them. The breakdown of the family then began (and has now reached ridiculously low levels none of us could have ever imagined) and our nation has been on a steady decline ever since.
You also grew up with the privilege of being white.
And why do you think your specific small town experience fairly extroplates well to larger trends in other communities?
And why do you think it was tied to the heterosexual nature of your parents rather than their supportiveness in general?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You also grew up with the privilege of being white.
And why do you think your specific small town experience fairly extroplates well to larger trends in other communities?
And why do you think it was tied to the heterosexual nature of your parents rather than their supportiveness in general?
Because that was God's clearly-stated plan for all of us.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tech77
Because that was God's clearly-stated plan for all of us.
That reply doesn’t exactly answer any of my questions. Does god not also plan hardship for some of his chosen ones?
What link does hererosexual parenting have on any particular good outcome for someone?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...e_studies.html
“The Columbia project is the largest collection of peer-reviewed scholarship on gay parenting to date. What does it show? We found 71 studies concluding that kids with gay parents fare no worse than others and only four concluding that they had problems. But those four studies all suffered from the same gross limitation: The children with gay parents were lumped in with children of family breakup, a cohort known to face higher risks linked to the trauma of family dissolution.“
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
That reply doesn’t exactly answer any of my questions. Does god not also plan hardship for some of his chosen ones?
What link does hererosexual parenting have on any particular good outcome for someone?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...e_studies.html
“The Columbia project is the largest collection of peer-reviewed scholarship on gay parenting to date. What does it show? We found 71 studies concluding that kids with gay parents fare no worse than others and only four concluding that they had problems. But those four studies all suffered from the same gross limitation: The children with gay parents were lumped in with children of family breakup, a cohort known to face higher risks linked to the trauma of family dissolution.“
You lean on your own knowledge for direction. You are a smart man, but you are just a man. I strive to lean on the one who created everything.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
We are talking about “systemic racism” and its corollary “white privilege”. These are not individualized concepts such as individually held beliefs of prejudice or (white guilt). In fact, the very act of attempting to tie the two concepts of prejudice and system racism together is dismissive to the reality of systemic racism/white privilege and perpetuates the “second tier” status that POC face here and elsewhere.
Sure, prejudice remains, but that is not even the main problem that we are talking about. It is the act of pretending that our experiences as white and black Americans that are the same that, in effect, reinforce beliefs that “black culture” are to blame for the very real struggle that POC face. Talking about black culture/breakdown of the family unit/etc sound convincing to white people (and even some black people), but such arguments actually inflict racial stereotypes that fail to account for the very real systemic racism that contributes to the black experience being different from the white privilege we enjoy.
I have had this conversation many times, and I have been on your side of the argument. It takes awhile to start to truly empathize with the plight of POC (at least it did for me). Some of this is an effort to avoid guilt - which is not what you are being asked to do - no guilt is involved. Some is also an affinity to the argument that rural or poor whites also face disadvantage. That is a discussion that we can properly have too - but when you tie it to issue of systemic racism it only serves to perpetuate systemic racism.
Btw, Trump is incapable of undertstanding systemic racism because he has no empathy. He is a psychopath. I don’t expect everyone on BBB to understand either, because there are a few that lack the capacity for true empathy - statistically that has to be true.
i hope that i did not give the impression that i do not empathize with those who are at a disadvantage. but the residual effects of racism are not the same as racism. if our current systems are unfair in any way, then that is what we need to fix. i just don't think it is helpful to look at it from the perspective of race. if a system is unfair, let's fix the unfairness regardless of the color of the victim. to harp on systemic racism and white privilege is to promote a victim mentality. it also drives a wedge between people of color and the people who are supposed to be perpetuating the systemic racism.
i am glad there are people of color who reject that mentality and want to work in unity toward improving systems that are broken. i will side with them rather than with people who want to blame the world's problems on racism.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Yeah, you still don’t get it, but you are capable of getting it. Again, we are taking about “systemic racism”, and trying to approach the problem from a colorblind position fundamentally promotes systemic racism by denying unique aspects of black heritage (residual effects of overt racism) that still cause racial oppression.
Do you deny that your race has shaped your experience? Would it have been different if you were black?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Yeah, you still don’t get it, but you are capable of getting it. Again, we are taking about “systemic racism”, and trying to approach the problem from a colorblind position fundamentally promotes systemic racism by denying unique aspects of black heritage (residual effects of overt racism) that still cause racial oppression.
Do you deny that your race has shaped your experience? Would it have been different if you were black?
no, i think it is you who do not get it. my life would be different if....
...insert any number of conditions, including race, place of birth, character of parents, etc. race is an easy place to draw the line, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
a colorblind position does not fundamentally promote systemic racism if it is not blind to racism in the system. an insistence that everyone accept the notion of systemic racism does promote real racism, and that is the problem that i have here.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
no, i think it is you who do not get it. my life would be different if....
...insert any number of conditions, including race, place of birth, character of parents, etc. race is an easy place to draw the line, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
a colorblind position does not fundamentally promote systemic racism if it is not blind to racism in the system. an insistence that everyone accept the notion of systemic racism does promote real racism, and that is the problem that i have here.
Sure it does. You are seeing it play out in this very thread and others. The stats presented on black out of birth wedlocks, etc, which are the result of systemic racism, have the effect of promoting racist stereotypes about “inner cities” and black culture, and black-on-black crime. Everytime these get discussed, stereotypes and prejudices get reinforced.
Prejudices are a problem when they cause oppression - white people don't really have to worry about that. So what form of real racism does insisting that people acknowledge the existence of systemic racism cause?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Since you insist on painting with such a broad brush, goosey, I suggest "blacks" reject libtardism as an important first step. Now, there's a system of racism for ya. The democraps destroying black families and creating an entire class of guvmint-dependent people. Began in earnest with LBJ's "great society" socialist crap and continues today with the 'craps' politics of division.
So, you libtards are responsible for whatever woes haunt the black community. And yeah, you white libtards don't have to worry about any of that, now do ya.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Sure it does. You are seeing it play out in this very thread and others. The stats presented on black out of birth wedlocks, etc, which are the result of systemic racism, have the effect of promoting racist stereotypes about “inner cities” and black culture, and black-on-black crime. Everytime these get discussed, stereotypes and prejudices get reinforced.
Prejudices are a problem when they cause oppression - white people don't really have to worry about that. So what form of real racism does insisting that people acknowledge the existence of systemic racism cause?
you just demonstrated it yourself. why is "black-on-black" crime a statistic? why does color matter in gang violence? would it make a difference if more white people were involved?
the real question is what do you propose to do about this oppression that you see?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
the real question is what do you propose to do about this oppression that you see?
This is part of his reading material now although he said he had better solutions. I'm waiting to hear if those involve anything outside of better schools and more jobs.
The only thing that will stop murders in black neighborhoods, or in any neighborhoods, is a higher standard of living, not laws that will be enforced through a racist lens. Economic improvement will happen only through a mass radical movement to create a system in which the people democratically control the wealth that we create with our labor.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
This is part of his reading material now although he said he had better solutions. I'm waiting to hear if those involve anything outside of better schools and more jobs.
The only thing that will stop murders in black neighborhoods, or in any neighborhoods, is a higher standard of living, not laws that will be enforced through a racist lens. Economic improvement will happen only through a mass radical movement to create a system in which the people democratically control the wealth that we create with our labor.
so socialism is the answer?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
so socialism is the answer?
I don't think he agreed totally with this. I'll let him explain and hopefully give the short version of his solution.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
This is part of his reading material now although he said he had better solutions. I'm waiting to hear if those involve anything outside of better schools and more jobs.
The only thing that will stop murders in black neighborhoods, or in any neighborhoods, is a higher standard of living, not laws that will be enforced through a racist lens. Economic improvement will happen only through a mass radical movement to create a system in which the people democratically control the wealth that we create with our labor.
I think better schools must be part of the solution. But better programs for kids and families - educational, training. Programs and policies that support diversity. It will require an all-in, wholistic approach.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
It requires people to distance themselves from guvmint and pick themselves up by their boot straps.
Oh...sorry, they don't have boots to have the straps. Okay. One last guvmint hand-out, make sure everyone has boot straps!
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I think better schools must be part of the solution. But better programs for kids and families - educational, training. Programs and policies that support diversity. It will require an all-in, wholistic approach.
You also realize that idiotic programs like common core are part of the problem right? All in?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
:laugh: Good luck!
Sean Combs hints at starting a new football league
Posted by Mike Florio on October 11, 2017, 9:38 PM EDT
https://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wor...0&h=316&crop=1Getty Images
In a stream of Tuesday night tweets, music and entertainment mogul Sean Diddy Combs expressed a desire to buy the NFL. As in all of the NFL. At a likely cost in excess of $100 billion (assuming he could convince 31 different owners to sell and buy up at least 50.1 percent of non-transferable Packers stock), that’s not realistic.
But here’s what is realistic: Starting his own football league. And he seems to be considering that, too.
“I did have a dream to own a NFL team but now my dream is to own our own league!” Combs tweeted at one point. “A league where you can be yourself. Have a retirement plan. . . . Have freedom to be a great human and protest for your people without being demonized for your beliefs as a KING!! NEW DREAM ALERT!!!!”
The NFL (which already has a retirement plan) has enjoyed a monopoly over pro football for decades. With enough funding, could Combs and any partners he’d recruit set up a league that would be less buttoned up and stifling to player freedoms than the NFL? They’d have the money to get it started; the question becomes whether it would resonate with the audience enough to generate a return on the investment.
In recent years, I’ve wondered whether the time has come for an old-school football league, where the kind of hits for which people like the President wax nostalgic are legal, and where all players assume the risks of playing rough-and-tumble tackle football. Given recent developments, maybe it’s time for a new-school football league. One that attracts younger fans and those who have had enough of the rules and policies and edicts and mandates.
Regardless of philosophy, it won’t be easy to compete with the NFL. Many have tried; all have failed. Still, maybe the window has opened for an alternative. And maybe someone with significant resources will decide to give it a whirl.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...otball-league/
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
You also realize that idiotic programs like common core are part of the problem right? All in?
Common core is a weak scapegoat.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Common core is a weak scapegoat.
As you know it is a federal road block to changing our system. It is "the change" the government thinks we need, which is a dumbing down approach. I have no problem in working without federal funds. How do you feel about that?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
As you know it is a federal road block to changing our system. It is "the change" the government thinks we need, which is a dumbing down approach. I have no problem in working without federal funds. How do you feel about that?
Common core are minimum standards. What is wrong with having some minimum standards? Particularly when the minimum standards were higher than what the minimum standards were in most states before it was implemented?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Common core are minimum standards. What is wrong with having some minimum standards? Particularly when the minimum standards were higher than what the minimum standards were in most states before it was implemented?
No. Common core has changed the way of teaching and learning completely. It is a dumbing down designed to prepare "some" students for standardized testing. Google common core math and you'll see what I mean. Here is an example: http://d7.freedomworks.org.s3.amazon...emainphoto.jpg
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Common Core is a red herring (the math method is MUCH better than how I learned). The idea that we can't talk about something unless we have a particular solution is illogical. The claim can be made that discussing the problem with no absolute solutions serves only to divide. I think the counter is that we're already divided. Admitting it is the first step toward true unity that will improve the lives of all Americans. That is, after all, what we all want.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Common Core is a red herring (the math method is MUCH better than how I learned). The idea that we can't talk about something unless we have a particular solution is illogical. The claim can be made that discussing the problem with no absolute solutions serves only to divide. I think the counter is that we're already divided. Admitting it is the first step toward true unity that will improve the lives of all Americans. That is, after all, what we all want.
I agree. Common core math is better. Perhaps harder for parents and even students at first, but requires actual understanding of the concepts.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Common Core is a red herring (the math method is MUCH better than how I learned). The idea that we can't talk about something unless we have a particular solution is illogical. The claim can be made that discussing the problem with no absolute solutions serves only to divide. I think the counter is that we're already divided. Admitting it is the first step toward true unity that will improve the lives of all Americans. That is, after all, what we all want.
If you think common core is better for math it means one of two things. You didn't get along with math or you had a horrible math teacher. After having raised 5 kiddos some of which did not do well in math, we found bad math teachers to be the problem even for the ones who were good in math. Good math teachers are THE most important part of education and it is no longer a priority.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I agree. Common core math is better. Perhaps harder for parents and even students at first, but requires actual understanding of the concepts.
What's does knowing the "estimated sum" do for a student when they are later in life balancing their check book?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
What's does knowing the "estimated sum" do for a student when they are later in life balancing their check book?
https://www.google.com/amp/mylearnin...struction/amp/
To catch SIGNIFICANT material mistakes.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tech77
I think that is a terrific way to teach the concept. Knowing how to apply concepts and to think is the most valuable thing you can learn. Far more important than learning the most efficient way to multiply. We have calculators for that. In fact most kids always have a calculator on them today.
You guys need to stop being dinosaurs and get with the future. Kids learn from their parents, so if the parents criticize the methods, it doesn’t reinforce the learning.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You are one who can probably inject logic into math and didn't need memorization. However not all of us are/were able to learn w/out memorization. I think math basics should be taught the way it was always taught (with memorization), but using good teachers. Note I said "basics"
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I think that is a terrific way to teach the concept. Knowing how to apply concepts and to think is the most valuable thing you can learn. Far more important than learning the most efficient way to multiply. We have calculators for that. In fact most kids always have a calculator on them today.
You guys need to stop being dinosaurs and get with the future. Kids learn from their parents, so if the parents criticize the methods, it doesn’t reinforce the learning.
You jumped on me and called me a dinosaur without even hearing what I thought of it. I like some of it. I think it could have been simplified into 3 easy steps.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
If you think common core is better for math it means one of two things. You didn't get along with math or you had a horrible math teacher. After having raised 5 kiddos some of which did not do well in math, we found bad math teachers to be the problem even for the ones who were good in math. Good math teachers are THE most important part of education and it is no longer a priority.
I did very well in math. I had great teachers. Common core is currently teaching my kids to do what I intuitively did in my head.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
You are one who can probably inject logic into math and didn't need memorization. However not all of us are/were able to learn w/out memorization. I think math basics should be taught the way it was always taught (with memorization), but using good teachers. Note I said "basics"
So, let’s say you memorize multiplication tables and you learn the short hand, efficient ways to tabulate... what good does that do you if you don’t know when to apply multiplication or you fail to see all of the opportunities to use it.
The way we carry out productive work is rapidly changing. Critical thinking skills is what distinguishes humans from the computers and robots that will replace us or certain functions we perform in our jobs. The thinking and concepts are the “basics” - the tables of values for the mathematical operations corresponding to each operand.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I did very well in math. I had great teachers. Common core is currently teaching my kids to do what I intuitively did in my head.
It's like getting rid of the white T. It wasn't broke and didn't need fixing. Now that there is a new system, some are gonna say they like it just because it is new.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
It's like getting rid of the white T. It wasn't broke and didn't need fixing. Now that there is a new system, some are gonna say they like it just because it is new.
This has certainly proven to be an effective red herring! It was broken for my wife. Memorization didn't work for her and she essentially tuned out for the concepts. I think she would've been MUCH better off with CC math.
There are always guys who don't wanna learn a new way who are gonna say they hate something just because it's new...:D
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
So, let’s say you memorize multiplication tables and you learn the short hand, efficient ways to tabulate... what good does that do you if you don’t know when to apply multiplication or you fail to see all of the opportunities to use it.
The way we carry out productive work is rapidly changing. Critical thinking skills is what distinguishes humans from the computers and robots that will replace us or certain functions we perform in our jobs. The thinking and concepts are the “basics” - the tables of values for the mathematical operations corresponding to each operand.
You are thinking like an engineer. Many business people don't need advanced math skills. Focus on the basics.
Getting back to the problems we face, you know that some students will turn out to be masters of math while some won't. Those who won't MUST have the basic skills to succeed. I believe memorization is the best way to learn the basics.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
This has certainly proven to be an effective red herring! It was broken for my wife. Memorization didn't work for her and she essentially tuned out for the concepts. I think she would've been MUCH better off with CC math.
Did not being able to do math in her head change her quality of life? Of course not. Why was it important for her to know more than the basics?
We agree that lack of education is a huge part of the problem. The learning system in place was not the problem. Now we won't know the results of common core for another 5 to 10 years.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
PawDawg
Did not being able to do math in her head change her quality of life?
It certainly limited her options...isn't that what the greater conversation is about? It's not one thing, but a confluence of things that make it far less likely that a certain group will be able to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps".
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
PawDawg
No. Common core has changed the way of teaching and learning completely. It is a dumbing down designed to prepare "some" students for standardized testing. Google common core math and you'll see what I mean. Here is an example:
http://d7.freedomworks.org.s3.amazon...emainphoto.jpg
I check back in to find this has morphed into a discussion of common core.
Common core for math is great in theory. As Johnnylightnin says it is trying to teach kids to do math the way many of us do math in our heads. I agree that that is a good concept. The execution is terrible.
Instead of adding clarity to math processes it often adds confusion. Even to people who have fairly advanced math skills. The example above is a great idea. Using estimation to check your answer is a great idea and many of us do that intuitively. How do you explain to a kid that estimating 291 as 200 is appropriate or that your estimate of 500 shows the actual answer of 645 is reasonable.
Unfortunately I think common core just shifts the problems elsewhere. I always struggled with memorization. Still do. Instead of having to memorize math operations and tables, now (if you struggle with the concepts being taught) you have to memorize the operations, tables and the method they want you to use. Teaching different ways of thinking about it is great. Turning around and forcing them to think about it a certain way to get the answer defeats the purpose.
Don't get me started on how they take what should be simple concepts and make them needlessly complicated and just the general poor execution of the common core material.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Other than what I've been told, and what I have read from various sources, I don't know much about Common Core. By a general consensus it appears more people dislike CC, than like it. CC didn't begin in practice until after I had left teaching at the secondary level. I have many friends who are still active teachers and they don't like it. I do have first-hand experience in teaching math to those who have been exposed to CC throughout their secondary education. I'll have more data soon.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
You are thinking like an engineer. Many business people don't need advanced math skills. Focus on the basics.
Getting back to the problems we face, you know that some students will turn out to be masters of math while some won't. Those who won't MUST have the basic skills to succeed. I believe memorization is the best way to learn the basics.
Please don't associate this chump with intelligent people. He couldn't think himself out of a wet paper bag!
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
LABulldog
Please don't associate this chump with intelligent people. He couldn't think himself out of a wet paper bag!
I am still thinking about that statement.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
LABulldog
Please don't associate this chump with intelligent people. He couldn't think himself out of a wet paper bag!
Can you think yourself out of one?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
The claim can be made that discussing the problem with no absolute solutions serves only to divide. I think the counter is that we're already divided. Admitting it is the first step toward true unity that will improve the lives of all Americans. That is, after all, what we all want.
i don't know if you're addressing me with this or not, but that is not the claim i was making. if there truly is racism, we need to discuss it and the ways to stop it. unfortunately, the evidence for this racism is based mostly on anecdotes, feelings, and deceptive statistics. we don't need absolute solutions to discuss it, but we do need specific examples.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
arkansasbob
we don't need absolute solutions to discuss it, but we do need specific examples.
Kapernick said it so it must be so.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
detltu
Man, that is a depressing summation. I do believe that is what the most extreme members of BLM and similar groups believe.
I can share your friends concerns about adopted children of different races. It's a discussion my wife and I have had as we have tried to adopt. I am concerned that my children would be faced with racism and how I would handle that and I'm also concerned that they might actually believe something like the article you posted. If I believed that I don't think I could stay in this country and I don't know why any person of color would either.
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a social system that had racist economic inequality built into its foundation"
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laws and political and economic policies that work to reproduce a social system that is racist and has racist outcomes"
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a serious and well-documented problem of routine discrimination in all areas of life, and the frequent dehumanization and marginalization of POC"
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shorter life spans, limited income and wealth potential, impacted family structure as a result of mass incarceration of Blacks and Latinos, limited access to educational resources and political participation, state-sanctioned killing by police, and the psychological, emotional, and community tolls of living with less, and being seen as “less than."
"White elites, often unconsciously, work to perpetuate systemic racism via politics, law, educational institutions, the economy, and via racist representations and underrepresentation of people of color in mass media. "
"Feagin's theory, and all of the research he and many other social scientists have conducted over 100 years, illustrates that racism is in fact built into the foundation of U.S. society and that it has over time come to infuse all aspects of it. It is present in our laws, our politics, our economy; in our social institutions; and in how we think and act, whether consciously or subconsciously. It's all around us and inside of us, and for this reason, resistance to racism must also be everywhere if we are to combat it."
Why would anyone choose to live in a place like this?
I will read article later as I would like to better understand what these BLM, etc., issues are all about. Racist beliefs are a 2 way street, though maybe for different reasons. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but my observation is that many things are incorrectly blamed on racism. It's too easy to do so and prevents honest evaluation of what causes many issues in our society.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Well, that was poorly presented and explained absolutely nothing.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
We are talking about “systemic racism” and its corollary “white privilege”. These are not individualized concepts such as individually held beliefs of prejudice or (white guilt). In fact, the very act of attempting to tie the two concepts of prejudice and system racism together is dismissive to the reality of systemic racism/white privilege and perpetuates the “second tier” status that POC face here and elsewhere.
Sure, prejudice remains, but that is not even the main problem that we are talking about. It is the act of pretending that our experiences as white and black Americans that are the same that, in effect, reinforce beliefs that “black culture” are to blame for the very real struggle that POC face. Talking about black culture/breakdown of the family unit/etc sound convincing to white people (and even some black people), but such arguments actually inflict racial stereotypes that fail to account for the very real systemic racism that contributes to the black experience being different from the white privilege we enjoy.
I have had this conversation many times, and I have been on your side of the argument. It takes awhile to start to truly empathize with the plight of POC (at least it did for me). Some of this is an effort to avoid guilt - which is not what you are being asked to do - no guilt is involved. Some is also an affinity to the argument that rural or poor whites also face disadvantage. That is a discussion that we can properly have too - but when you tie it to issue of systemic racism it only serves to perpetuate systemic racism.
Btw, Trump is incapable of undertstanding systemic racism because he has no empathy. He is a psychopath. I don’t expect everyone on BBB to understand either, because there are a few that lack the capacity for true empathy - statistically that has to be true.
You are not qualified to determine that anyone has no empathy or is a psychopath. I suggest you are merely taking a position without facts to back them up. My observation is that you are just saying that your position has to be correct just because . . .
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
stodgdog
You are not qualified to determine that anyone has no empathy or is a psychopath. I suggest you are merely taking a position without facts to back them up. My observation is that you are just saying that your position has to be correct just because . . .
You don’t know anything about my qualifications. But you can read the book that just came out “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump” which is a collection of essays of 27 mental health care experts diagnosing him of that and much worse. You should read it.
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Re: What is Systemic Racism?
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You could solve your empathy defficiency, but it would require you to seek understanding rather than judgment.
You project yourself as judgmental and with very little empathy, because you seem to lack any understanding of any opinion other than your own.