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Civil War monument topic
I did not know this, but I found it on the internet, so it must be true.
I'm curious if this person's history lesson changes anyone's perspective on this issue. The statement is below along with the supporting chart.
I have been thinking a lot about Confederate monuments.
This hits home particularly for me; a Confederate statue graces the old courthouse lawn back in my hometown of Perry, GA, just as one sits at the center of downtown Bentonville, AR where I used to work. As it turns out, both were erected around the same time: Bentonville's in 1908, and Perry's in 1909!
Which got me thinking: 1909? That’s strange. That’s nearly half a century after the end of the Civil War. Why 1909?
Here’s why: in the aftermath of Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which upheld states’ rights to segregate public amenities, race was at the forefront of the national consciousness. In 1909, the NAACP was founded! And, at the same time, Jim Crow laws were designed to prevent black participation in democracy: between 1890 and 1910, ten of the eleven former Confederate states, starting with Mississippi, passed new constitutions or amendments that effectively disenfranchised most blacks and tens of thousands of poor whites through a combination of poll taxes, literacy and comprehension tests, and residency and record-keeping requirements. In Arkansas, for instance, the Streetcar Segregation Act (1903) assigned separate but equal sections of streetcars to blacks and whites.
People today wrongly assume that Confederate monuments were built when the war concluded. The spate of Confederate monument building in the first ten years of the 20th century was actually a reactionary backlash against the integration of blacks as equals into our shared society.
It would be one thing if the monument represented some swansong of the rebels, a nostalgic view of a fallen ideal. But timing is everything: 1909 was the time when whites deployed their money and power to monumentalize racist, anti-black sentiment. That is what those monuments stand for. As such, they cannot stand.
https://www.splcenter.org/sites/defa...conography.jpg
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FriscoDawg
Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
Exactly! So the first post doesn't change my mind. Leave the statues up!!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
I did not know this, but I found it on the internet, so it must be true.
I'm curious if this person's history lesson changes anyone's perspective on this issue. The statement is below along with the supporting chart.
I have been thinking a lot about Confederate monuments.
This hits home particularly for me; a Confederate statue graces the old courthouse lawn back in my hometown of Perry, GA, just as one sits at the center of downtown Bentonville, AR where I used to work. As it turns out, both were erected around the same time: Bentonville's in 1908, and Perry's in 1909!
Which got me thinking: 1909? That’s strange. That’s nearly half a century after the end of the Civil War. Why 1909?
Here’s why: in the aftermath of Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which upheld states’ rights to segregate public amenities, race was at the forefront of the national consciousness. In 1909, the NAACP was founded! And, at the same time, Jim Crow laws were designed to prevent black participation in democracy: between 1890 and 1910, ten of the eleven former Confederate states, starting with Mississippi, passed new constitutions or amendments that effectively disenfranchised most blacks and tens of thousands of poor whites through a combination of poll taxes, literacy and comprehension tests, and residency and record-keeping requirements. In Arkansas, for instance, the Streetcar Segregation Act (1903) assigned separate but equal sections of streetcars to blacks and whites.
People today wrongly assume that Confederate monuments were built when the war concluded. The spate of Confederate monument building in the first ten years of the 20th century was actually a reactionary backlash against the integration of blacks as equals into our shared society.
It would be one thing if the monument represented some swansong of the rebels, a nostalgic view of a fallen ideal. But timing is everything: 1909 was the time when whites deployed their money and power to monumentalize racist, anti-black sentiment. That is what those monuments stand for. As such, they cannot stand.
They should stand in Civil War battlefields and civil war museums. That's where all of them should be, confederate and union. I was shocked to see so many in Baltimore (confederates)!
I think they should just cease with the whole public statue thing altogether. I guess it's the old graven image thing. I also think that rushing out to put the new Governor's name on all the state signs is pretty stupid too.
For good measure, I think Teddy Roosevelt should be sandblasted from the face of Mt Rushmore. Why someone thought he belonged with Lincoln, Jefferson and Washington I will never understand. :D
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
They should stand in Civil War battlefields and civil war museums. That's where all of them should be, confederate and union. I was shocked to see so many in Baltimore (confederates)!
I think they should just cease with the whole public statue thing altogether. I guess it's the old graven image thing. I also think that rushing out to put the new Governor's name on all the state signs is pretty stupid too.
For good measure, I think Teddy Roosevelt should be sandblasted from the face of Mt Rushmore. Why someone thought he belonged with Lincoln, Jefferson and Washington I will never understand. :D
Because his face was wide enough to cover up the clues to the Native American treasure, of course.
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This slippery slope will eventually offend Japanese and German Americans. The US flag is offensive to some already. It's madness!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill.... literally everything offends someone in todays world.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
I think the point RD was making was that the purpose of the statues was to offend, intimidate and disenfranchise.
That is a bit different than doing something for a different reason and someone gets offended, no?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I think the point RD was making was that the purpose of the statues was to offend, intimidate and disenfranchise.
That is a bit different than doing something for a different reason and someone gets offended, no?
That may be the point he was making, however that tearing down is EXACTLY about being offended. This whole movement came about recently, not during the Obama Admin..
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
That may be the point he was making, however that tearing down is EXACTLY about being offended. This whole movement came about recently, not during the Obama Admin..
So why keep them then? People are offended as the statues were designed to do. Are you saying people weren't offended before?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
It is true, as I mentioned on another thread, ALL such monuments were erected decades after the War of Northern Aggression ended. This is true for statues dedicated to Confederates and to Yankees. In fact, the South led the way and after a time some in the north started saying, hey, we should erect monuments too.
In the immediate aftermath of the war, for at least 20 years, no one, north or South, was interested in remembering the war. It was a terrible time in our history. Back then, there were tens of thousands of veterans going around on wooden legs, many missing arms, many disfigured by horrible wounds, and of course, there were the over 600,000 graves holding the dead. It wasn't until the 1890's that people began to reflect on the war and to understand and appreciate the enormous sacrifice of the average soldier and of the great generals. Monuments started to be erected to honor the fallen and to remember the single most influential event in our nation's history. It also sent a message to the whole world: a democracy can survive internal strife. In the mid-19th Century the USA was still considered a "great political experiment" whose success was still in doubt.
I cannot say what motivated some to erect monuments in the early 20th Century. That article cited by RD claims the ONLY motivation was white backlash to political changes of the time. Maybe. Most of these monuments were put up by towns, counties, with the financial support of the state. Did some "redneck" town council in Bofunk, Mississippi erect a monument as a direct response to blacks winning more rights? I don't know. Perhaps that was their motivation. Or....maybe it wasn't.
But, most Confederate monuments were erected to remember/honor a "lost cause." To honor soldiers who fought and many who died. For Southerners in the 1890's and the early 20th Century it was to "not forget" and by lack of action assume a position of indifference. "Are you a Son of the South, or are you not?" It was easy, 40 years after the war, to show support for the "lost cause" by agreeing, yeah, let's erect a statue to Robert E. Lee and/or one to remember our local regiment who fought in the war. That was the majority view of the time.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
That may be the point he was making, however that tearing down is EXACTLY about being offended. This whole movement came about recently, not during the Obama Admin..
Perhaps because the people who were (intentionally) intimidated and disenfranchised by the statues fear becoming marginalized again.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
So why keep them then? People are offended as the statues were designed to do. Are you saying people weren't offended before?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maverick
Perhaps because the people who were (intentionally) intimidated and disenfranchised by the statues fear becoming marginalized again.
If this is about being offended then were is the line drawn? Japanese, Germans, Indians (no dot), etc.. can all claim being offended. It's like this...
"I'll wake up today and look around for things that offend me because of my skin color, sexual orientation, or religious preference. If I take a stand - even if it includes violence - I and my "cause" will be better for it."
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
If this is about being offended then were is the line drawn? Japanese, Germans, Indians (no dot), etc.. can all claim being offended. It's like this...
"I'll wake up today and look around for things that offend me because of my skin color, sexual orientation, or religious preference. If I take a stand - even if it includes violence - I and my "cause" will be better for it."
Do you not distinguish between government acts that are intended to offend and those that have another purpose but have that effect?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Do you not distinguish between government acts that are intended to offend and those that have another purpose but have that effect?
Like Obamacare premiums? Income tax rates? Mount Rushmore? Jefferson Memorial? Vicksburg National Park?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Eventually, they'll want to dig up graves of confederate soldiers. How long before they start trying to tear Jefferson's face off of Rushmore? Typical radical behavior of terrorists. The Taliban blew up huge Buddhist statues carved in the side of a mountain in Afghanistan. ISIS destroyed relics in a city in northern Iraq because it didn't match up with their goofy religion.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I think the point RD was making was that the purpose of the statues was to offend, intimidate and disenfranchise.
That is a bit different than doing something for a different reason and someone gets offended, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maverick
Perhaps because the people who were (intentionally) intimidated and disenfranchised by the statues fear becoming marginalized again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Do you not distinguish between government acts that are intended to offend and those that have another purpose but have that effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
Eventually, they'll want to dig up graves of confederate soldiers. How long before they start trying to tear Jefferson's face off of Rushmore? Typical radical behavior of terrorists. The Taliban blew up huge Buddhist statues carved in the side of a mountain in Afghanistan. ISIS destroyed relics in a city in northern Iraq because it didn't match up with their goofy religion.
Exactly! The left is acting like the Taliban and ISIS in trying to destroy history and historical items.
The leftist in America could never live in Europe as they imagine they could as the history and statues everywhere would drive them even further insane. The libs are too thin skinned and weak in America.
I agree with this statement.
'This is not about racial healing. This is about control of the narrative'
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/the-big-list-u-s-epidemic-of-endangered-monuments/#AwSpBYFQHgLge7rA.99
Muslim Mafia joins war on Confederate memorials
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/#DL2Uk8WoPdLSPSrB.99
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
'This is not about racial healing. This is about control of the narrative'
Damned right. And since we've controlled the narrative since we formed our country and it's always been our narrative and our country and since they don't like it they can get the phuck out, we aren't about to try to understand what they want to say or what they've experienced or have perceived to experience whether factual or misunderstood. It's our narrative and we aren't going to share it.
For some reason a scripture about not being a stumbling block to your brother keeps coming to mind when these graven image worship debates arise, but I guess you have to consider one as your brother for that to apply.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
I think the point RD was making was that the purpose of the statues was to offend, intimidate and disenfranchise.
That is a bit different than doing something for a different reason and someone gets offended, no?
For the record...I wasn't making the point. I related someone else's point and solicited commentary. I never stated whether or not I agree with it.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
Eventually, they'll want to dig up graves of confederate soldiers. How long before they start trying to tear Jefferson's face off of Rushmore? Typical radical behavior of terrorists. The Taliban blew up huge Buddhist statues carved in the side of a mountain in Afghanistan. ISIS destroyed relics in a city in northern Iraq because it didn't match up with their goofy religion.
Nobody is going to dig up Confederate soldiers. Get a grip.
Time to follow the advice of General Lee and put all the Confederacy "stuff" in a museum for future generations to understand.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Originally Posted by
saltydawg
Nobody is going to dig up Confederate soldiers. Get a grip.
I don't know. I imagine depending on their rank and standing and family stature, they might be buried with some valuable items. I'm sure there are many "hidden" confederate grave sites off the beaten path. I wonder how much a confederate 10 dollar bill would go for?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
I'll add these two cents...
The very nature of how this country came to be, what it is, why it is, etc....the fact that we are all free (within the law) means that everything we are is founded in discussion, debate, disagreement...even to the point of being offensive. As long as Americans are free, Americans will be offended by the freedom of other Americans.
This is why I think this entire debate is stupid...and I'm not limiting it to monuments. Are there racist people in this country? duh. Do people dislike other people for all kinds of reasons? Of course. Do people get offended? certainly. Are we all free to think and feel these things? absolutely. Anything otherwise wouldn't be America. However...
...having said all that, has there ever, in the history of the world, been a nation without persecution of certain groups? No. Has that ever been fair? No. Does that make it right? No, but it does shed some realism on the subject.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtydawg
I don't know. I imagine depending on their rank and standing and family stature, they might be buried with some valuable items. I'm sure there are many "hidden" confederate grave sites off the beaten path. I wonder how much a confederate 10 dollar bill would go for?
There is a lot of gold buried in the unmarked grave next to Arch Stanton's.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
Nobody is going to dig up Confederate soldiers. Get a grip.
Time to follow the advice of General Lee and put all the Confederacy "stuff" in a museum for future generations to understand.
You sure?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...der-grave.html
http://www.theamericanmirror.com/mem...enerals-grave/
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
There is a lot of gold buried in the unmarked grave next to Arch Stanton's.
Thanks for the tip, blondie.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
And they would bury our fine police officers next to him if given the chance. "Kind, considerate, concerned" liberals with "good hearts" need to steer clear of the BLM people. That group, with good intentions out of the gate, has been corrupted with anti-police, pro-stalinist, pro-violence leaders.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
I'll add these two cents...
The very nature of how this country came to be, what it is, why it is, etc....the fact that we are all free (within the law) means that everything we are is founded in discussion, debate, disagreement...even to the point of being offensive. As long as Americans are free, Americans will be offended by the freedom of other Americans.
This is why I think this entire debate is stupid...and I'm not limiting it to monuments. Are there racist people in this country? duh. Do people dislike other people for all kinds of reasons? Of course. Do people get offended? certainly. Are we all free to think and feel these things? absolutely. Anything otherwise wouldn't be America. However...
...having said all that, has there ever, in the history of the world, been a nation without persecution of certain groups? No. Has that ever been fair? No. Does that make it right? No, but it does shed some realism on the subject.
A lot of words that add up to this: a nothing burger.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
They are not interested in the grave so much as the respect the poor guy received in the past
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
They are not interested in the grave so much as the respect the poor guy received in the past
But the point is that, contrary to your assumption, they wish to use the grave to make their point.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
A lot of words that add up to this: a nothing burger.
Yep, and it summarizes this entire issue. Yet, you and people with similar views are trying to make that nothing burger into your mission.
Or is that you just being intolerant of my opinion?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
Yep, and it summarizes this entire issue. Yet, you and people with similar views are trying to make that nothing burger into your mission.
Or is that you just being intolerant of my opinion?
Frankly, RD, I couldn't figure out your opinion. Hence, the nothing burger comment. Maybe you can re-phrase it so I can have a second chance to understand it?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
But the point is that, contrary to your assumption, they wish to use the grave to make their point.
Out of the hundred of thousands of Confederate dead, a few are dug up? Anyway, my Great-Great grandfather was a Captain in the Confederate Army so I driving over to Arkansas next week to check on his grave which is located in Old Alabama.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
Out of the hundred of thousands of Confederate dead, a few are dug up? Anyway, my Great-Great grandfather was a Captain in the Confederate Army so I driving over to Arkansas next week to check on his grave which is located in Old Alabama.
Where is Old Alabama?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Here's what I asked my black friend one day when he was complaining about how slaves were treated. Where do you think you would be today if your ancestors had not been slaves? He's a very smart and successful guy.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Originally Posted by
DONW
Where is Old Alabama?
actually it's spelled Old Alabam. It's in Madison County AR.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DawgyNWindow
There is a lot of gold buried in the unmarked grave next to Arch Stanton's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVc2MQwMkg
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
Frankly, RD, I couldn't figure out your opinion. Hence, the nothing burger comment. Maybe you can re-phrase it so I can have a second chance to understand it?
So because you couldn't comprehend, you responded with an insult. Ok.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Good ole Southern peepaw giving his granddaughter a history lesson as I'd imagine it.
"You know little Beulah Mae. That statue there is of the great Confederate General Robert E. Lee who fought in the War of Northern Aggression when us Southerners wanted to preserve our rights as sovereign states to govern ourselves as we saw fit. One of those rights was to own slaves. Now we know that was a bad thing, but we were a bit confused back then. As you know, we lost and had to give up our slaves. The funny thing about this and other statues from the Confederacy is that they weren't even built until nearly 50 years after the war ended, around 1909, when the former slaves started to get a bit full of themselves. They even were so bold as to form an organization called the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People at that time, NAACP for short. So, to remind them of who was still in charge, statues that engendered their worst memories, fears and nightmares were erected. Boy did it keep them in their place. But it's a different world now. They don't still harbor scars from growing up in the shadows of the treatment their ancestors received or the disadvantages so steep that many still struggle to overcome the damage to their psyche. But it is good we keep these statues up to remind us that we shouldn't ever have slaves again because these statues do more good in reminding us of our evil past than they do harm of reminding them they still are faced with a legacy of subjugation. Now that's your history lesson for today."
My concern is with the human condition. I've said before, I don't really care what's done with the statues. I also believe that some truly believe that they believe they want the statues a a history lesson. I take the approach of why give life to something that I know causes conflict, a stumbling block if you will, to another human being? Why not try to be compassionate and understanding to their journey? Will there be those who seek to take advantage of that notion? Of course. But that doesn't mean you make the others suffer. I've resigned myself to the fact that this world is past the turning point, and we're closer to Christ's coming than we realize, but that's only affirmed my resolve to start speaking honestly the way I feel led.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
One might think it would be Southerners who would want all those Confederate monuments removed. After all, we are told, the South was pure evil in the 1860's and we lost the war to boot. Who would want to be reminded of that?
Germans want no reminders of Hitler's Germany and his Nazis. They want to sanitize their history. Erase all vestiges of the era, Germany had NO 1930's - 1945. It did not exist. Tell young German children today...it's amazing, Germany has no history for that 15-year period.
But, that's not the case here. Southerners (obviously not all, but in a general consensus) do not want to erase, whitewash away, our history. Instead, it's Yankees and today's libtards who want to erase that history. Pretend it never happened....just like Germans today. Why is that? What are Yankees and libtards afraid of?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Most Southerners use the fallacious argument that removing deified graven images of past gone people will erase their existence as though that is the only avenue of teaching history. Why is that? What are these Southerners afraid of?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtydawg
Most Southerners use the fallacious argument that removing deified graven images of past gone people will erase their existence as though that is the only avenue of teaching history. Why is that? What are these Southerners afraid of?
Nothing. Especially a bunch of damn yankee interlopers or antifa terrorists.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
It's occurred to me that Champ967 hasn't chimed in yet. I wonder why he isn't talking up the saving of taxpayers money and re-purposing these statues? In fact, that might be the best solution. Come on, Champ. You can be a national hero by stepping in with a legitimate re-purpose model that would allow everyone to win.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtydawg
Most Southerners use the fallacious argument that removing deified graven images of past gone people will erase their existence as though that is the only avenue of teaching history. Why is that? What are these Southerners afraid of?
Not afraid of a damned thing! I say put up MORE Confederate monuments. And not just to our gallant soldiers, but to the philosophy that was the Confederacy. People have a right to self-government, self-determination. And that is the REAL answer to the rhetorical question I posed....well, maybe not rhetorical to a moron like you, devoid of real historical knowledge. Or...maybe you do know, but you're one of the evil One-Worlders and understand completely. Which is it, Dirty, are you just ignorant or are you evil?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
So this is what we turn into after asking God to leave our classromms and courtrooms? (or have we asked Him to leave our lives as well?)
Turn on anyone who disagrees and resort to namecalling? Are we trying to relate truth, or just to tear down or silence anyone who disagrees by getting louder and meaner?
Pro 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
Ecc 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
Ecc 10:13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.
Ecc 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?
Been there, done that, then, thank God, got humbled and realized who was really winning, hope to never return. WE will account for every word.
Cowpatty - Venting emotions, in general, is not reasoning, nor love, but all about self. (it is much better when we "do all to the glory of God" -1 Cor. 10:31)
Much more importantly, Jesus said "Go and sin no more." {hoping to hear stones drop.}
Yep! :(( I didn't want to post this, I just had to.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
What does the Bible say about building statues to false idols such as Confederate generals?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What does the Bible say about building statues to false idols such as Confederate generals?
Good point, but this is not about worship of idols, it is about the right to worship idols or in this case, admire them. You should be good with that. The ACLU is.
Just an FYI, so I am not labeled as a Nazi or Racist like Trump... I've never felt the need to flaunt my Southern heritage. It's not something I think about or am concerned about. Some folks are in to that. They have that right.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
Good point, but this is not about worship of idols, it is about the right to worship idols or in this case, admire them. You should be good with that. The ACLU is.
Just an FYI, so I am not labeled as a Nazi or Racist like Trump... I've never felt the need to flaunt my Southern heritage. It's not something I think about or am concerned about. Some folks are in to that. They have that right.
They are free to worship Hitler or Robert E. Lee if they want, but not on government owned property right?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
They are free to worship Hitler or Robert E. Lee if they want, but not on government owned property right?
They had a permit didn't they? Enough of the "worship Robert E Lee" stuff. Do your really put Robert E Lee and Hitler in the same category?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Not afraid of a damned thing! I say put up MORE Confederate monuments. And not just to our gallant soldiers, but to the philosophy that was the Confederacy. People have a right to self-government, self-determination. And that is the REAL answer to the rhetorical question I posed....well, maybe not rhetorical to a moron like you, devoid of real historical knowledge. Or...maybe you do know, but you're one of the evil One-Worlders and understand completely. Which is it, Dirty, are you just ignorant or are you evil?
Study of the civil war is incredibly important, in my humble opinion, so that you can compare the prevailing view of federalism prior to Lincoln's election and then after the surrender. Our country's view of the role of the federal government changed radically from that point forward after the hostilities ceased. It is still a worthy debate and point to bring up.
One of the many great tragedies of the civil war is that these higher-minded ideals of the confederacy (and states at large) you mentioned, espoused in principle by the founding fathers, became hopelessly entangled with the evil of slavery and racial animus.
I take a federalist view in regards to the monuments: If the locals or state governments decide to remove them through lawful means, let them do so. It's the job of the citizens and elected leaders to voice their opinions eloquently and convincingly.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
They had a permit didn't they? Enough of the "worship Robert E Lee" stuff. Do your really put Robert E Lee and Hitler in the same category?
You're changing the subject. You said they had the right to worship these statues and I'm responding that they don't have the right to keep these statues on government property.
Am I wrong? Don't forget that they were protesting the removal (not destruction) of a statue on State property.
I don't see Lee and Hitler the same way. I think Lee would be appalled at these statues. I think my grandfather and many in the great generation would be appalled that many on the right are falling over themselves to defend Nazi scum (but that's neither here nor there).
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
I think my grandfather and many in the great generation would be appalled that many on the right are falling over themselves to defend Nazi scum (but that's neither here nor there).
They would also be alarmed at the acceptance of communist aggression and violence in the United States. Many of those leftists would label you as "nazi scum" so be careful in your alignment with them.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
You're changing the subject. You said they had the right to worship these statues and I'm responding that they don't have the right to keep these statues on government property.
Am I wrong? Don't forget that they were protesting the removal (not destruction) of a statue on State property.
I don't see Lee and Hitler the same way. I think Lee would be appalled at these statues. I think my grandfather and many in the great generation would be appalled that many on the right are falling over themselves to defend Nazi scum (but that's neither here nor there).
I didn't intend to change the subject. I understand your question now. Yes if the "legal authority" says remove it, it will be removed. The protesters still have the right to peacefully protest that decision.
This is the rub...Who is defending Nazi Scum? You used "many" as a description. Do you know anybody personally who would support a Nazi or a White Nationalist? This whole thing was immediately turned into an opportunity to group Trump and Trump supporters as Nazi sympathizers and White Nationalist. I could see it coming way back when the "Alt Right" term began to pop up.
It's amazing how manipulative the media can be and also amazing how many are indoctrinated by the alt-left.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
Here's what I asked my black friend one day when he was complaining about how slaves were treated. Where do you think you would be today if your ancestors had not been slaves? He's a very smart and successful guy.
So all blacks in the U.S. are descended from slaves?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cool Hand Clyde
They would also be alarmed at the acceptance of communist aggression and violence in the United States. Many of those leftists would label you as "nazi scum" so be careful in your alignment with them.
Irrelevant
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Not afraid of a damned thing! I say put up MORE Confederate monuments. And not just to our gallant soldiers, but to the philosophy that was the Confederacy. People have a right to self-government, self-determination. And that is the REAL answer to the rhetorical question I posed....well, maybe not rhetorical to a moron like you, devoid of real historical knowledge. Or...maybe you do know, but you're one of the evil One-Worlders and understand completely. Which is it, Dirty, are you just ignorant or are you evil?
"Not one of us is good"; so, probably a little bit of both with a great deal of naivete to boot. However, I'm not so ignorant or blind that I can't see hatred disguised and excused. Why are you so full of hate? The only One-World I anxiously anticipate is the one world ruled over by OUR Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Pretty evil, right? Other than that, I'm pretty much an isolationist. And the reason I anxiously await His return is because I'm ready to throw off this diseased body, and have not a single doubt that I won't. Why do you fear His coming in Glory to claim His unified kingdom?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
I didn't intend to change the subject. I understand your question now. Yes if the "legal authority" says remove it, it will be removed. The protesters still have the right to peacefully protest that decision.
This is the rub...Who is defending Nazi Scum? You used "many" as a description. Do you know anybody personally who would support a Nazi or a White Nationalist? This whole thing was immediately turned into an opportunity to group Trump and Trump supporters as Nazi sympathizers and White Nationalist. I could see it coming way back when the "Alt Right" term began to pop up.
It's amazing how manipulative the media can be and also amazing how many are indoctrinated by the alt-left.
Not to quibble too much, but the term Alt-Right was self-applied. It is a real, disgusting movement that is worth paying attention to. But to say it's not racially motivated is incorrect. Their own champions will tell you what it's about in their own words. The left is trying to bulk everyone else on the right in with them.
I recommend giving Ben Shapiro's show a listen (the first one after Saturday). It's got good stuff on Antifa and the alt-right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67zCG-KPWfQ&t=674s
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
Good point, but this is not about worship of idols, it is about the right to worship idols or in this case, admire them. You should be good with that. The ACLU is.
Just an FYI, so I am not labeled as a Nazi or Racist like Trump... I've never felt the need to flaunt my Southern heritage. It's not something I think about or am concerned about. Some folks are in to that. They have that right.
I'm very proud and do flaunt my Southern heritage. Some of the greatest writers in the American canon of literature are tried and true Southerners.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OLDBLUE
So this is what we turn into after asking God to leave our classromms and courtrooms? (or have we asked Him to leave our lives as well?)
Turn on anyone who disagrees and resort to namecalling? Are we trying to relate truth, or just to tear down or silence anyone who disagrees by getting louder and meaner?
Pro 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
Ecc 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
Ecc 10:13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.
Ecc 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?
Been there, done that, then, thank God, got humbled and realized who was really winning, hope to never return. WE will account for every word.
Cowpatty - Venting emotions, in general, is not reasoning, nor love, but all about self. (it is much better when we "do all to the glory of God" -1 Cor. 10:31)
Much more importantly, Jesus said "Go and sin no more." {hoping to hear stones drop.}
Yep! :(( I didn't want to post this, I just had to.
I'm glad you did.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cool Hand Clyde
Now there's no debating that.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LATechBanjo
Not to quibble too much, but the term Alt-Right was self-applied. It is a real, disgusting movement that is worth paying attention to. But to say it's not racially motivated is incorrect. Their own champions will tell you what it's about in their own words. The left is trying to bulk everyone else on the right in with them.
I recommend giving Ben Shapiro's show a listen (the first one after Saturday). It's got good stuff on Antifa and the alt-right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67zCG-KPWfQ&t=674s
Thanks. I didn't say that well...
A few weeks ago was the first time I had heard the term outside to the occasional lumping in by some here on THE BBB of Trump supporters being "alt right". I brushed it off until it came up in the Southern Baptist convention. I looked up the meaning and confirmed I was not a member.;)
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtydawg
Some of the greatest writers in the American canon of literature are tried and true Southerners.
Some poignant thoughts from Shelby Foote:
http://midtownrepublican.com/archives/18175
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
They are free to worship Hitler or Robert E. Lee if they want, but not on government owned property right?
You worship a God that says slavery is ok. Did you not read those verses or did they tell you in seminary school to skip those verses? What will you do when they ban your Bible?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cool Hand Clyde
They would also be alarmed at the acceptance of communist aggression and violence in the United States. Many of those leftists would label you as "nazi scum" so be careful in your alignment with them.
Can two differing people share a common belief without being aligned in the other areas of their beliefs?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
You worship a God that says slavery is ok. Did you not read those verses or did they tell you in seminary school to skip those verses? What will you do when they ban your Bible?
Our God also says that our earthly rulers are put in place by Him, so why do we have elections every 2-4 years?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
You worship a God that says slavery is ok. Did you not read those verses or did they tell you in seminary school to skip those verses? What will you do when they ban your Bible?
Great Hannity impression. Irrelevant.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Great Hannity impression. Irrelevant.
Thanks for the compliment! I love Sean Hannity. He speaks the truth.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cool Hand Clyde
Interesting thought from a Southern historian born a little after the turn of the century.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DONW
Thanks for the compliment! I love Sean Hannity. He speaks the truth.
That's cute. Just to clarify, something can be true (your statement, like many Hannity statements took a partial truth and extrapolated it out to something that was not true) and irrelevant. Hannity is a master of selling irrelevancies as the most important thing ever.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Slavery is actually more previlant today!! Sex trafficking, current slavery by the Arabs to build their fancy infrastructure world wide etc..
And historically all nations have participated in slavery (specially Arab countries) including then black ones in Africa and yes Israel. Get over it Libs!!!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What does the Bible say about building statues to false idols such as Confederate generals?
Hey, those are REAL idols. Nothing false about 'em.
Oh, that's right, Goosey, you're an atheist. Your idol is nothingness.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnnylightnin
Irrelevant
Not when the end-goal is shared.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dirtydawg
"Not one of us is good"; so, probably a little bit of both with a great deal of naivete to boot. However, I'm not so ignorant or blind that I can't see hatred disguised and excused. Why are you so full of hate? The only One-World I anxiously anticipate is the one world ruled over by OUR Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Pretty evil, right? Other than that, I'm pretty much an isolationist. And the reason I anxiously await His return is because I'm ready to throw off this diseased body, and have not a single doubt that I won't. Why do you fear His coming in Glory to claim His unified kingdom?
Dodged the question...
that's okay. It was a set-up anyway.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Hey, those are REAL idols. Nothing false about 'em.
No.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
Slavery is actually more previlant today!! Sex trafficking, current slavery by the Arabs to build their fancy infrastructure world wide etc..
And historically all nations have participated in slavery (specially Arab countries) including then black ones in Africa and yes Israel. Get over it Libs!!!
Yep, I mentioned that on a Facebook article and have received an array of responses. But, the issue remains. If one is really concerned about slavery, and one should be, then don't pat yourself on the back for toppling a hunk of bronze. Go to the border of Chad and Libya and stop the slave trade that is happening right now, August, 2017. Wonder if the good Nazi George Soros would fund a trip of BLM, antifa, and other libtards to Chad. Here is a real opportunity to do something worthwhile.
I would hope all our resident libtards on this forum would join in on such a trip. Would make for some interesting posts!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Hey, those are REAL idols. Nothing false about 'em.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuBru
No.
What do ya mean, no? Yes they are.
When I was a kid Brooks Robinson was my idol. So much so when I played Little League I wore #5 and played 3rd base. Like I said, he was my idol. Well, in baseball. I had other idols for other things.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Hey, those are REAL idols. Nothing false about 'em.
Oh, that's right, Goosey, you're an atheist. Your idol is nothingness.
Ironically, I don't have idols. Certainly not people.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
I did not read through all the posts, so maybe it was addressed, but isn't the "evidence" that the statues were put up for racial motives sort of circumstantial? Is this fact or speculation?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tech77
I did not read through all the posts, so maybe it was addressed, but isn't the "evidence" that the statues were put up for racial motives sort of circumstantial? Is this fact or speculation?
Pure speculation. Next question!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tech77
I did not read through all the posts, so maybe it was addressed, but isn't the "evidence" that the statues were put up for racial motives sort of circumstantial? Is this fact or speculation?
Circumstantial and strong,
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuBru
Not when the end-goal is shared.
It's only shared insofar as they both strive toward authoritarianism.
It's certainly irrelevant to the issues surrounding the VA monument, protests, counter-protests, and subsequent murder.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Not to change the subject...but when are liberals going to finally admit that autos kill people? We need much more strict auto laws in this country.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...owd/index.html
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
Tear down any monuments to cars!
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
What do ya mean, no? Yes they are.
When I was a kid Brooks Robinson was my idol. So much so when I played Little League I wore #5 and played 3rd base. Like I said, he was my idol. Well, in baseball. I had other idols for other things.
Confederate generals are not idols.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Tear down any monuments to cars!
It's not THAT bad of a movie and movie series. Lots of kids will be very heartbroken if Cars was taken away.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Re: Civil War monument topic
OK let's get them all!
Racists, rapists, murderers: Four statues of liberals untouched by protesters
AUGUST 16TH, 2017
BY KYLE OLSON
Left-wing mobs are okay with memorials to racists, accused rapists and murders — as long as they’re liberals.
As agitators move from Southern town to Southern town to tear down and uproot Confederate relics, four statues in American city stand safe fro, progressive harm.
Former West Virginia Sen. Robert Byrd stands tall. He’s so well respected, he was named “West Virginian of the 20th Century.”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHUHDdpXoAgXEHD.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHUWX3wVwAAj2nn.jpg
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Re: Civil War monument topic
:laugh: Chop his statue's *** off.
Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones call for destruction of Bill Clinton statue
AUGUST 17TH, 2017
BY KYLE OLSON
Why does America honor an accused rapist?
That’s what Juanita Broaddrick wants to know.
Speaking exclusively to The American Mirror, Broaddrick denounced the lack of efforts to uproot a monument to Bill Clinton in South Dakota, the man she says raped her in a Little Rock, Arkansas hotel room in 1978.
“I would like to ‘personally’ use a sledgehammer on it, with the help of Kathleen Willey and Paula Jones,” Broaddrick says.
A life-size statue of Clinton stands at the corner of 7th and Saint Joseph Street in Rapid City.
http://www.theamericanmirror.com/wp-...e-768x1024.jpg
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Re: Civil War monument topic
TIME TO DUMP LENIN STATUE IN SEATTLE
Neighborhood home to Google, Adobe, Getty Images
Published: 15 hours ago
http://www.wnd.com/files/2017/08/lenin-seattle-1.jpg
As many American cities eliminate Confederate monuments amid a wave of protests, a tech venture capitalist is asking if it’s time to pull down a 16-foot tall statue of communist dictator Vladimir Lenin in a Seattle neighborhood that has become a tech hub, with offices for Google and Adobe and the headquarters of Getty Images, among others.
Benedict Evans of Andreessen Horowitz, which invests in companies such as Airbnb and Lyft, says that if “one wanted to pull down statues of profoundly evil people,” the Lenin statue in Seattle’s Fremont neighborhood should be on the list, reported GeekWire.
Evans tweeted about the statue to his 224,000 followers on Tuesday, noting Lenin was “responsible for uncountable human suffering.”
Activists regularly apply red paint to the bronze statue to signify the “blood on the hands” of the founder of the Soviet Union.
The statue was brought to the U.S. after being toppled during the 1989 revolution that overthrew the Communist Party in the former Czechoslovakia.
Defenders of the statue see it as ironic, particularly in the context of the quirky Fremont neighborhood. Known for its hippies and artists, Fremont’s motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar. A giant statue of a troll sits under a major bridge, the annual summer solstice parade features nude bicyclists, and a cast aluminum sculpture at a bus stop of six people and a dog, called “Waiting for the Interurban,” is regularly dressed up by locals in a variety of apparel.
The Seattle Times noted in a 2015 story on the Lenin statue that it is “loved and hated – and very Fremont.” The eight-ton bronze was brought to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, by a Seattle-area man, Lewis Carpenter, who was teaching in the former East bloc nation. Carpenter died in 1994, but his family still owns the statue and, as of 2015, it was for sale for $250,000 or best offer.
The Independent Journal Review reported that in addition to Fremont’s Lenin, an 18-foot Lenin originally commissioned by the USSR stands on an apartment rooftop on the Lower East Side of New York City, and a large metallic bust of the Soviet founder is on display outside a museum in Los Angeles.
On Wednesday, Seattle’s Democratic mayor, Ed Murray, expressed “concerns” about a monument to Confederate soldiers in a local cemetery, which closed Wednesday afternoon after receiving threats related to the monument, the Seattle Times reported.
On the same day, a small group of protesters gathered at the Lenin statue, and on Thursday, the Times reported, Murray called for both the Confederate monument and the Lenin statue to be taken down, saying they represent “historic injustices” and are symbols of hate, racism and violence.
Red Terror
The Soviet Union, according to an averaging of academic reports by the war histories
website Necromatics.com, was responsible for 56 to 62 million “unnatural deaths” overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/tech-inve...2CRRPYVFjVa.99
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/tech-inve...2CRRPYVFjVa.99
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/tech-inve...2CRRPYVFjVa.99
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PawDawg
This is the rub...Who is defending Nazi Scum? You used "many" as a description. Do you know anybody personally who would support a Nazi or a White Nationalist? This whole thing was immediately turned into an opportunity to group Trump and Trump supporters as Nazi sympathizers and White Nationalist. I could see it coming way back when the "Alt Right" term began to pop up.
It's an indirect defense, but "they're bad too" is a defense. Insisting on juxtaposing Nazi's with Left Wing terrorists effectively diminishes the critique of the right-wing terror...I assume you will disagree, but I bet if you were to change out the groups in question, you would see what I'm talking about.
Further, Alt-right didn't "pop-up" Trump invited them into the process the day he hired Steve Bannon. Why do you think Bannon was hired? You really think Trump's walk-back was about espousing truth? I think it was about maintaining a well organized and motivated voting block.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Civil War monument topic
This is the kind of CSA monument that I think isn't racially motivated. I fully support honoring the soldiers who fought for the South, many of whom were draftees.
Attachment 14094
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TYLERTECHSAS
A life-size statue of Clinton stands at the corner of 7th and Saint Joseph Street in Rapid City.
To be fair, Rapid City has statues of all the past presidents on their downtown street corners. I was there just a few months ago.
I just don't understand why we honor politicians so much in this country. Most of them are scumbags just like Clinton.
Wouldn't a better likeness of him include a cigar in his mouth?
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltydawg
Nobody is going to dig up Confederate soldiers. Get a grip.
Time to follow the advice of General Lee and put all the Confederacy "stuff" in a museum for future generations to understand.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...der-grave.html
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cool Hand Clyde
Thank you for sharing this, I'd not seen it before. Very good read.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
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Re: Civil War monument topic
I'm glad I'll be spending a week in DC soon. May be my last chance to see anything.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JuBru
Confederate generals are not idols.
Not to a one-world libtard like you. But to people who understand history they are.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dawg80
Not to a one-world libtard like you. But to people who understand history they are.
Still not a liberal. And your understanding of history is tenuous at best.
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Re: Civil War monument topic
This should really be put under "Another Dem Double Standard". She is such a phony b****.
WHICH STATUES PELOSI WANTS OUT OF CAPITOL
'No room for violent bigotry,' she decides after 30 years in Washington
Published: 12 hours ago
WASHINGTON – Former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is angry.
After serving for 30 years in the Capitol, she decided Friday enough is enough.
No, she’s not quitting.
She’s determined, she says, to see all the Confederate statues in Statuary Hall removed – ironically, nine out of 10 being members of her own party, as were all prominent politicians from the South.
“There is no room for celebrating the violent bigotry of the men of the Confederacy in the hallowed halls of the United States Capitol or in places of honor across the country,” the current House minority leader said.
So which statues does she want eradicated?
1. Jefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy – a Democrat from Mississippi.
2. Alexander Stephens, vice president of the Confederacy – a Democrat from Georgia.
3. General Robert E. Lee, a Virginian who never dabbled in politics.
4. General Joseph Wheeler, an Alabama Democrat.
5. James Zachariah George, a Democrat from Mississippi.
6. Wade Hampton III, a Democrat from South Carolina.
7. General Edmund Kirby Smith, a Democrat from Florida.
8. Zebulon Baird Vance, a Democrat from North Carolina.
9. John E. Kenna, a Democrat from West Virginia.
10. Jabez Lamar Monroe Curry, a Democrat from Georgia.
“Nancy Pelosi has been walking through those halls of the Capitol for 30 years, and all of a sudden, she wants to see these statues removed,” said Rush Limbaugh. “Do I have to even explain how ridiculous that is?”
The total of 100 statues on display are part of the National Statuary Hall Collection and aren’t chosen by Congress. Each state contributes two statues, chosen by that state’s government, according to the architect of the Capitol.
"Ironically, during the Civil War and for more than 100 years afterwards, the Democratic Party dominated Southern politics.It was America’s first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln, who issued the Emancipation Proclamation, the first major step toward eliminating slavery from the states.
Over the last 100 years, Democrats have controlled Congress almost twice as long as Republicans and there have been 35 years during which they controlled both houses and the presidency. But only in 2017 did the Confederate statues in the Capitol become an issue for them.
Some suggest it’s a way to help eradicate the strong Democrat connection with the Confederacy – something about which Americans are oblivious. Not only did Republicans lead the charge against slavery, they also were targeted for death and intimidation by the Ku Klux Klan, which represented the military wing of the Democratic Party.
But today, Democrat lawmakers are accusing President Trump of being proponent of white supremacy, even though he has repeatedly condemned the white supremacists and neo-Nazis who rallied in Charlottesville, Virginia.
“The Confederate statues in the halls of Congress have always been reprehensible,” Pelosi said in a statement. “If Republicans are serious about rejecting white supremacy, I call upon Speaker Ryan to join Democrats to remove the Confederate statues from the Capitol immediately.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/08/which-sta...Lwe3LSfbcqK.99