Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
Dawgonit
I don't either but China has steered away from a communist economy for decades now. It's only a communist nation in name now. Authoritarian? Most definitely. Communist? Not really.
Maybe you should ask the people that live there and work for 25 cents a day what it is. It's communism, the communist government still runs everything. What do you think would happen to them if they tried to form a labor union?
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
DONW
Maybe you should ask the people that live there and work for 25 cents a day what it is. It's communism, the communist government still runs everything. What do you think would happen to them if they tried to form a labor union?
You can also ask the huge booming middle class there what kind of place it is. There are poor people in every country. Making 25 cents a day isn't an example of a communist economy. In some examples like minimum wage, worker's rights, and environmental regulation the Chinese have a more a laissez faire model than the United States. What they have is an authoritarian government that doesn't allow dissident but sees the huge benefits of capitalism flowing into the country, even at the expense of workers, the environment, and human rights.
The "communist" government has the ability to run everything because they have absolute power but they definitely follow more of an Adam Smith model on economy than Mao or Karl Marx in the last few decades.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
DONW
Maybe you should ask the people that live there and work for 25 cents a day what it is. It's communism, the communist government still runs everything. What do you think would happen to them if they tried to form a labor union?
I agree. The Communist Party is running everything. A very ruthless regime. Just read that North Korea is making clothes for the USA and they are sewing "Made in China" labels on the clothes. DISGUSTING.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
I think it looks like the administration has made very important progress with NK as a result of all this. The Chinese have clarified their 1961 treaty, and now KJU knows that big brother won't lift a finger to stop us from wiping out NK if they attack first. Now, we should define to the Chinese and NK where that line is. If they target Guam and put a missle within X mile radius, we interpret that as an attack. We could even say "in the direction of." Point is that now, we can define what that action is to the Chinese.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
I think it looks like the administration has made very important progress with NK as a result of all this. The Chinese have clarified their 1961 treaty, and now KJU knows that big brother won't lift a finger to stop us from wiping out NK if they attack first. Now, we should define to the Chinese and NK where that line is. If they target Guam and put a missle within X mile radius, we interpret that as an attack. We could even say "in the direction of." Point is that now, we can define what that action is to the Chinese.
Are you high? You call this escalation "progress"?
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RhythmDawg
I think it looks like the administration has made very important progress with NK as a result of all this. The Chinese have clarified their 1961 treaty, and now KJU knows that big brother won't lift a finger to stop us from wiping out NK if they attack first. Now, we should define to the Chinese and NK where that line is. If they target Guam and put a missle within X mile radius, we interpret that as an attack. We could even say "in the direction of." Point is that now, we can define what that action is to the Chinese.
The Chinese Communists make their own rules and really don't care what arbitrary definitions the US Government may make. What the Chinese Communist mean is if North Korea attacks USA or its Allies with nuclear or convention munitions then it on its own. Launching a missile into International waters isn't an attack on the US.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Are you high? You call this escalation "progress"?
Go play with your tinker toys, Goosey, adults are having a conversation here.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
saltydawg
The Chinese Communists make their own rules and really don't care what arbitrary definitions the US Government may make. What the Chinese Communist mean is if North Korea attacks USA or its Allies with nuclear or convention munitions then it on its own. Launching a missile into International waters isn't an attack on the US.
RhythmDawg's point is we need to clarify that with the Chicoms. He wasn't advocating that we render an arbitrary definition of "an attack" then expect the Chicoms to agree...after the fact. Get an up front agreement prior to any NK military actions. Make sure the Chicoms agree with that definition. Seems reasonable to me.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
dawg80
RhythmDawg's point is we need to clarify that with the Chicoms. He wasn't advocating that we or its Allies render an arbitrary definition of "an attack" then expect the Chicoms to agree...after the fact. Get an up front agreement prior to any NK military actions. Make sure the Chicoms agree with that definition. Seems reasonable to me.
North Korea is all talk when it comes to their threats. They are not going to attack the United States or its Allies unless we attack first. All Trump is going is escalating the tension between the 2 countries without producing any results. The danger is that either country will start to make emotional decisions based on fear or irrational thinking. There is NO GOOD OUTCOME FOR ANYBODY if there is a war between N Korea and the US.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
saltydawg
North Korea is all talk when it comes to their threats. They are not going to attack the United States or its Allies unless we attack first. All Trump is going is escalating the tension between the 2 countries without producing any results. The danger is that either country will start to make emotional decisions based on fear or irrational thinking. There is NO GOOD OUTCOME FOR ANYBODY if there is a war between N Korea and the US.
Except for the people of NK! Those who survive the war, of course.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
dawg80
Except for the people of NK! Those who survive the war, of course.
What makes you think that there would be a regime change in North Korea if the US attacked that country?
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Are you high? You call this escalation "progress"?
You want to poll BBB readers and find out which one of us they think is high?
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
saltydawg
The military didn't write the article. It was about the fact that the opponent is not going to advertise what methods it might use to defeat an anti-missile defense.
The opposite is quite true as well, the military wouldn't be divulging their anti ballistic capabilities as well.
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Originally Posted by
saltydawg
North Korea is all talk when it comes to their threats. They are not going to attack the United States or its Allies unless we attack first. All Trump is going is escalating the tension between the 2 countries without producing any results. The danger is that either country will start to make emotional decisions based on fear or irrational thinking. There is NO GOOD OUTCOME FOR ANYBODY if there is a war between N Korea and the US.
You exactly as much evidence that the Norks won't shoot first as knowing Trump would shoot first.
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
North Korea has escalated their aggression and arms development under Trump. This was very predictable. His temperament is a danger to this country and our allies.
Surely you will agree that conducting foreign policy via twitter without vetting the communications with experts is not a good idea.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
North Korea situation is going sideways on Trump's watch and it was likely caused by Trump's miscalculation and misunderstanding of international relations mixed in with the type of temperament we don't need in a POTUS (but you guys celebrate as a lack of political correctness). If they launch a nuke - Trump owns it.
WaPo is reporting that US intelligence says that NK has the technology to minituarize a warhead. Only remaining question is if it can survive reentry.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Going forward I recommend that Trump stop antagonizing NK and vet his communications on NK/China/Russia through experts; unfortunately we can't go back and undo his stupid tweets that have pushed us to the point we find ourselves today.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
That didn't take long.
"North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen... he has been very threatening beyond a normal state. They will be met with fire, fury and frankly power the likes of which this world has never seen before," Trump said.
Smh. I take it back. This is not just on Trump, but it is also on all of you guys that helped put this idiot in office.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
In case you haven't been paying attention, that is the type of rhetoric that historically causes KJI to escalate, so it is obvious that this comment will draw another bad behavior from Pyongyang.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
That is the easy part. Almost as easy as Trump running his mouth.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Stupid question. Obviously we retaliate. But the fact we find ourselves at this current escalated state is because Trump runs his mouth and can't control his twitter fingers. Every single time he attacks them with rhetoric, they escalate. Trump's rhetorical bravado puts us on the verge of war when the past administrations have maintained a relative stalemate situation with NK.
The reason previous administrations have done nothing is because all military scenarios with NK are bad. Talking tough puts us on a collision course where one of these bad options are likely to happen.
So, yes, Guam (and other US interests) is now more at risk because of Trump. I think that he is responsible for that. This was all very predictable.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Previous administrations were not burying their heads in the sand. The situation was being managed as best as it could without unnecessarily putting lives at risk. North Korea did not attack anyone during those administrations. We will see how this one does. So far it is doing a terrible job at making us safer.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
And don't play dumb. You guys knew this was the ultimate downside risk with Trump.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
They knew the risk; they just heavily (and incorrectly) discounted it.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the pattern of escalation since Trump got involved.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Facts are facts.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Because the inverse of big stick diplomacy is completely ineffective when you are the most powerful country in the world.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Who predicted this escalation?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-no...-idUSKBN1AO011
Facts are facts. There has always been a pattern here. My own personal observation - not something I have read, but I would be shocked if my observations on the subject are not universally supported by the talking heads on both sides of the aisle.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
But the bottom line is that if we go to war with NK in the near term it is because the crazy guy you guys voted for chose to play a game of chicken with a crazy dictator. A person with better temperament and self control would not have gotten into a game of brinkmanship where all outcomes are not good.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
These are 100% my thoughts, but any sensible person would agree. Trump's unnecessary and provocative rhetoric brought us to this point.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Can true statements not be provocations? When we say such things, the pattern is that NK retaliates with a behavior that is more aggressive than the previous time. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
What if he isn't afraid to die?
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Originally Posted by
Guisslapp
Are you high? You call this escalation "progress"?
How will you explain being so wrong so many times in one thread? You have broken records here. Will you now take up the CNN mantra that he backed down because Trump stopped the statements of what would happen if...?
Re: North Korea launches ballistic missile, pentagon confirms
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Originally Posted by
PawDawg
How will you explain being so wrong so many times in one thread? You have broken records here. Will you now take up the CNN mantra that he backed down because Trump stopped the statements of what would happen if...?
I have no idea what CNN's mantra but I bet you could parrot FoxNews's from your memory.
I will admit tensions appear to have de-escalated since my previous posts. Whether it was from Trump's rhetoric or back-channel diplomacy, I couldn't know. Tensions are still elevated relative to when he took office, but ultimately he will get blame or credit as to how the situation with North Korea goes.
You guys seem to give him a pass on everything - kind of a rehash of what we lived through with Obama blaming W for everything.
