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Thread: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

  1. #166
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by detltu View Post
    Way to misread the comment. I think all that Dwayne is saying is that it should be factored in before we start complaining about how poorly teachers are treated.

    I have an aunt that teaches and works as hard as anyone I know including summer school and serving on committees within the school, she is definately under paid for her work. My cousin is just as dedicated to her work and puts in lots of extra hours, but she doesn't usually teach summer school. Having summers off is a big factor for her.
    How did I misread the comment? I understood it perfectly. I simply replied with a question. If the time-off for summer is going to be factored in you need to point out the alternatives in all fairness.
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Wow. Did any of you read the opinion piece in the Times today? There was a teacher from Caddo schools including in a opinion in the Times that she heard a teacher on an improvement plan may have to teach the year with no salary. Heaven help Louisiana if this is the level of intelligence of many of the teachers.

  3. #168
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    What is not taken into account in this business model for education is in business if you feel you are given an inferior product you can send it back and get your product from some other source, not so for the teachers. You are stuck dealing with a child that calls you a Mother F"&#er and you can't do anything about it because of an IEP and the mother won't do anything because she is to drunk or high to care. If a manager has an employee that is disruptive to the mission you get rid of that employee. Teachers at "low performance" schools catch alot of blame for the things that are out of there control. You can try to teach a class of 25 kids but you will be only as successful as the home support you get. Parents are there childrens Origional teachers and home life sets the childs expectation for school. I would imagine that most on this board with children are involved in their child's life/ school.
    To a point made earlier bench mark testing throughout the year would would be most effective in tracking student levels and should account for 40% of a student's ability to pass (and could be used to judge both teacher and student) , 30% should be based on the body of work in the classroom (judge student and teacher), and 30% based on student controls (suspension, detention, homework, tardy to class, behavior, projects, ect.), parental involvement (showing up for parent teacher conferences 3 times a year, open house, absenteeism, tardy for school, ect.)
    Just my $.02 worth. It accounts for teacher, student, and parent/ guardian.

  4. #169
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by localdawg View Post
    What about this- just my take on the situation. And I am speaking about Jindal's insistence to tie teachers to student test scores. Suppose you are a realtor. You show a house. The house shows well. The buyer is very interested. Interested enough to buy. They do all the planning to buy the home. But at the last moment, their loan is refused and they can't buy the home. Is the realtor at fault? Is he/she a failure because they didn't sale the house? NO! Same with teachers having their job security tied to test scores. You can do your job the best you possibly can and still be hung out to dry in Jindal's plan...
    Quote Originally Posted by atobulldog View Post
    I understand your analogy, but do you see that they wouldn't get paid either?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I think you just proved the opposite point that you set out to prove. In the real world, people get paid based on their results no matter how much they actually did to achieve the results or how severely the deck is stacked against them. Market economies don't reward people based on effort.
    Actually, there is a big difference between the two. A realtor can take steps to avoid not having a sale go to closing. If acting as a buyer agent, the realtor can have the buyer apply for credit and get an approval for financing letter which will disclose what the buyer can afford and that he has been approved for that amount. I know realtors that have this as a standard procedure. I did it when I bought my house. It accomplishes two things. It allows the realtor to avoid wasting time by showing houses the buyer can't afford or even if the buyer will qualify, and it gives the buyer an edge over possible rivals wanting to buy the same house that don't have this approval letter as the seller is more likely to go with the buyer that already has financing lined up. When representing a seller, the agents will advise him on how best to present the property-what repairs need to be made, possible updating, cleaning, painting, etc... The seller chooses whether he wants to do this "homework" or not. If a realtor gets a buyer who doesn't want to cooperate by being pre-qualified or a seller that doesn't want to make his property more saleable, then the realtor has the option to not take on the client. A teacher does not have the luxury of choosing which students will be in any particular class.

    Also Guisslap, your point of people in the "real world" getting paid for results regardless of how the deck is stacked against them or how much, or even how little, they did to achieve them is not totally accurate. As an example, there are many engineers at some chemical plants who get paid even though they don't achieve what their superiors ask them to accomplish. This is because they have antiquated machinery and/or inferior raw materials, workforce, etc..., and those in charge know this, and as a result they don't hold their engineers accountable for circumstances which they have no control over that keeps them from achieving the desired goals. I'm not saying this is at every chemical manufacturing plant, but I personally know some where this takes place.

  5. #170
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ967 View Post
    The underlying premise here is that the "real world" is exclusive to market economies. I have serious reservations about defining "real world" in those terms, as if the non-market sectors are somehow detached from reality.
    True, the current "real world" is just as much socialist as it is market driven and becoming less market driven every day.
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  6. #171
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Jindal just signed the voucher bill

    http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

  7. #172
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    I give up. I really do. I just had dinner with my wife and her teacher buddies and I don't agree with their ideals either. I work much, much harder than they do but earn less money. I do benefit from the insurance I guess ( I haven't been to the doc in 10 years) but disagree with a great very many of their (teachers) idea of "work". After having originally posted this at my wife's request I formally withdraw my request and will let you guys decide for yourselves.
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  8. #173
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Just my two cents, and bit off topic.

    Is reforming education going to turn Louisiana around from the being the bottom dweller in pratically every economic category?

    Take for instance the TOPS scholarship program by Mike Foster. Yes good in principle, but did nothing to help the economic state of Louisiana. Kids graduated with a free education and left Louisiana because there are hardly no job opportunities.

    Jobs
    should be the number 1 focus of Louisiana politicians to combat the brain drain and losing population. Louisiana was 49th in population growth in the 2010 census, at least better than 50th Michigan.

    Jobs that have been lost in North Louisiana in the last ten years; Wilamette in Ruston, International Paper in Bastrop, State Farm in Monroe, the Guide plant in Monroe, GM Shreveport sometime this year. What has replaced these jobs? Chilis, Longhorn Steakhouse? Until Louisiana starts attracting some kind of industry all these education reforms are point less

  9. #174
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Economic Development 101 --- follow along in your notebooks:

    Step 1) Identify which industries you want to attract and what kind of workers they need
    Step 2a) Be the kind of community that attracts that kind of worker from elsewhere
    Step 2b) Train your local workforce to be that kind of worker, too

    Employers will find the locales that already have the skill sets they need. Everything else (infrastructure, school district, financial incentives, highway access, local culture, etc) are just tie-breakers. Winning communities & regions play the long game. Their approaches are comprehensive and the successes are incremental.

    Economic developers know this. Some Chambers do. But it aint sexy and it takes decades to do it right -- so only a few elected officials ever get it. I've seen too many small-towns run a road and a sewer line to a open field, call it an "industrial park", offer free utilities, ... and then wonder why nothing happens. Most of them fail at Step 2a, mainly because it calls for them to do something different.

  10. #175
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ967 View Post
    Economic Development 101 --- follow along in your notebooks:

    Step 1) Identify which industries you want to attract and what kind of workers they need
    Step 2a) Be the kind of community that attracts that kind of worker from elsewhere
    Step 2b) Train your local workforce to be that kind of worker, too

    Employers will find the locales that already have the skill sets they need. Everything else (infrastructure, school district, financial incentives, highway access, local culture, etc) are just tie-breakers. Winning communities & regions play the long game. Their approaches are comprehensive and the successes are incremental.

    Economic developers know this. Some Chambers do. But it aint sexy and it takes decades to do it right -- so only a few elected officials ever get it. I've seen too many small-towns run a road and a sewer line to a open field, call it an "industrial park", offer free utilities, ... and then wonder why nothing happens. Most of them fail at Step 2a, mainly because it calls for them to do something different.
    That is elegant in its simplicity - and correct. Beautifully set forth!

  11. #176
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by LookingForResults View Post
    That is elegant in its simplicity - and correct. Beautifully set forth!
    Thanks. That means a great deal.

    Jindal is correct that jobs start with K-12. If your city or state is chock full of dumbasses, then the only employers you'll retain will be the ones that need dumbasses.

    Glad to see Louisiana is doing something. Either it'll work or wont work. But at least it's something.

  12. #177
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by TYLERTECHSAS View Post
    And that's for just 9 - 9 1/2 months of work right? Hum.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg View Post
    Not for the dedicated teachers that I know.
    Almost all of the teachers I know totally enjoy their straight 2 1/2 months off and start preparing for the next year a week before school. But most already have their rooms set up and lesson plans fixed years before if still in the same grades.

    I'm sure many on BB&B wish they could have 2 1/2 months straight off every year plus all of the holidays and still get paid. Me, I take off when I want but for most that's not the case.

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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Quote Originally Posted by counselingdawg View Post
    Something has got to change. We have among the worst educational systems in the nation and we are fighting to keep doing what we have been doing. That seems incredible to me. The only change we ever seem to want is more money. That has not worked, and will not work until we make some fundamental changes. I'm not sure that Gov. Jindal's plan will produce a great leap forward, but we can't be any worse off than we currently are. Let's give this plan a chance.
    Agree 100%. At least SOMEONE is trying to do something better. Without positive change, I'd hate to see where education will be in 20 years. Our education system keeps companies from locating to our state. Everyone loses because of poor education.

  14. #179
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    I've said "No" to this thread for a while, but after reading 12 pages of back and forth, I have to drop my two cents in.

    I have worked in education for the last 5 years in this area. I worked 4 years as a classroom teacher, and I have worked this past year as a graduation coach, a position pushed for by the governor's office. I don't belong to a union.

    These are just my thoughts and opinions on the topics.

    There are some definite issues with the new "reform" that is happening, and there are some things that are rather interesting.

    - I could care less about tenure. I don't agree with it. No other job is guaranteed their job, so the tenure issue is a topic that doesn't affect my mindset. I do my job, and I believe I do my job well. The problem a lot of teachers have with the tenure discussion is "how a teacher will be judged". The process is complicated. The process is rushed. The process has not been detailed or explained to teachers. The process is being pushed through very fast, and it is being pushed through come hell or high water. This has bothered a lot of teachers. Another factor is how test scores and accountability will come into play. I don't expect someone that doesn't work in a school to understand. You can have wives, husbands, brothers, or sisters in the profession, but until you work the job for a year or more, you don't know what it's like day in and day out. Students are not numbers and figures, but a lot of these new systems treat students like numbers and equations. For a teacher to be judged or have their job be judged based off this information is an issue for a lot of people.

    - Governor Jindal bought the BESE board in these past elections. We all know it happened. In our area, Jay Guillot wasn't even Governor Jindal's first choice for the job. He bought a board to push his agenda through. If this was something else, people may have cried foul. People know we need some education reform, so no one said much about it.

    - We have non-Education people making huge, dramatic, and significant education decisions. I don't know many other professions that work this way. If I were to walk into my buddy's engineering firm and start making suggestions about how to do a better job, I would be laughed out of the place. On the other hand, apparently no one needs any skill or experience to make education decisions. This is a big deal to people in most educational circles. Outsiders...don't care at all about this issue though. Everyone just seems to think educators are mad because we lost tenure. It is nice to know that I will be judged on a rubric of about 50 points though.

    - Mass testing. I don't know if you all realize that the NCLB laws caused a lot of issues in the classroom. A lot of teachers teach to the test. That's how schools are graded. With a lot of these new changes, more teachers will teach to a test. Keep in mind that it really doesn't matter what you do in a classroom at times because some students will care less about the test. I've taught several capable, smart, and bright students that blew standardized tests off because they didn't care. Beginning next year, all high school students will be required to take the ACT. Only 22% of high school students are college ready. It doesn't matter if a student plans on attending college or not in the new system. Your money will go towards these tests as well. Next year begins common core as well. Standards, practices, and curriculum that will be common and rigorous for everyone in every state. Common core will reach from elementary through high school. These changes will begin next year, and it will become completely evolved in about 3 years.

    - I taught an average 150 students per year. I also was required to maintain a lot (45) of CLU (continuing learning units) hours during my year. I was observed throughout the year by principals and other parish administrators. I spoke to parents "when" they called. I tried calling and emailing parents a lot too...didn't always work out. I made myself accessible and open at all times. I worked hard at my job. I taught from bell to bell. I was rigorous. I challenged my students. We worked hard. When it came down to it, some of students just didn't perform when it counted. It hurt my school's scores. It made me look bad. What else could I do? Some students had other issues to deal with - poverty, family issues, learning disabilities, personal struggles, etc. Some students had wealthy families, solid families, no learning disabilities, and good social lives. When it came down to it though, my job was to get the job done, and despite my best efforts, some students just did not succeed. This dings my school score, and with this new system, it will ding my score too.

    - The mentality that the public has for teachers lately is surprising to me. No one seems to really care to see or hear a teacher's point of view on anything. I'd love to have a chance to answer questions from the public, parents, community leaders, government leader, or anyone else interested. We are on a team, but it doesn't seem that way.

    - My favorite discussion though is about my schedule. Everyone's favorite topic about a teacher is the amount of days that I have off during the year. For the four years that I taught, my average day looked like this:

    - Monday - Friday: 7 am - 4 pm (lunch optional) - Minimal work at home 1 hour
    - Saturday-Sunday: Minimum 5 hours (Total Minimal Hours Per Week - 55)
    - A person that works 40 hours per week a year works 2080 hours if they worked 52 weeks a year
    - I typically worked 55 hours per week a year for 40 weeks out of the year...2200 hours.

    - I do work a little less now with my new position, but I still do about an hour or so a night with work. I also will be working a month or so into the summer. I understand that the breaks get big attention. Ask yourself this though, "If I am so envious of a summer break, why didn't I become a teacher?" The reason for some is the pay. Some people say because they couldn't deal with students all day. Others still complain with no valid answer.

    There are some good things coming with this reform. On the other hand, there are a lot of things that will hurt the educators and educational system as well. Governor Jindal decided what HE wanted to do, and he made sure it was done. Plain and simple.

    Anyway. That's just my two cents. If anyone has a question or wants to actually talk about this, I'm open to it.

    Real quick - With my new job, I had the ability to take students to LA Tech for a campus tour. We have about 30 seniors that will be enrolling at LA Tech in the fall. This was my favorite pic of the day.
    photo 25a2.jpg

  15. #180
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    Re: Say No to Jindal's New Proposed Education "Reform"

    Well said sir!

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