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Thread: The movie "Red Tails"

  1. #1
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    The movie "Red Tails"

    Looking forward to seeing this. Since Lucas made it, the special effects should be awesome.

    But, waaaay beyond slick movie-making is the true story of the Tuskegee Airmen.

    But first....the plane. Pound for pound the finest fighter plane ever built.




    Early in WWII the allies knew they needed a new fighter (pursuit aircraft (P)) to match the Germans' ME-109 and the Japs' Zero. Two American engineers were charged with designing a new plane. In just 117 days, the prototype NA-73X was rolled out. Initially fitted with an Allison engine, it could obtain a top speed of 325 mph and had an operational ceiling of 25,000 feet. Good, but not good enough.

    For the Americans, there was a need for a new attack aircraft, fighter-divebomber to replace the aged Curtis. So, the NA-73X was fitted as such and designated the A-36 Apache. Two squadrons were sent to the Pacific (late 1942). Six months later, the Army Air Corps put in for a pilot to be named an ace. He had shot down 5 Jap Zeros in air-to-air combat. Asked which plane he had been flying, command thought it was a mistake when told...the A-36 Apache. Impossible! that's a divebomber, how could it best the Zero? No...it was a damn good airplane. This caused air command to re-evalute the plane. Meanwhile, the Brits had also been using the NA-73X in their own version as a low level recon plane and also a sub hunter, in the English Channel. The Allison engine made it under-powered. So, the Brits fitted it with a more powerful Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.....the P-51 Mustang was born!

    The finest fighter to ever grace the skies.
    Last edited by dawg80; 01-14-2012 at 09:25 AM.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    The plane was and still is awesome the sound of the engine is a pure rush.

  3. #3
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Seen it at airshows. Awesome!

    BTW, it's Rolls-Royce....not Royce-Rolls the way I had it. Brain fart!

    The final WWII version was the P-51H. Top speed 490 mph, operational ceiling 35,000 feet. Fitted with external drop tanks so it could escort B-29s on 1,000 mile round trips to bomb Japan....and after the bombers turned for home, the Mustangs still had 30 mins of fuel to free-lance, attacking whatever they wanted.

    Except for the F-15 Eagle, with its near perfection combat record, the P-51 Mustang has the finest record of any plane, from any country, in history.

    The Navy's Hellcat, also a damn good plane, shot down more enemy planes than any other in WWII. But, it was in service longer and had more opportunities. The Mustang's air-to-air combat record, in terms of victories vs. losses (percentages) dwarfs any other plane. It was invincible.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Far and above my favorite aircraft of all time. Yes the sound of it is like really good music, just beautiful.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Good stuff D80.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Beautiful airplane! I've heard stories that you could tell which pilots flew Mustangs because they had one leg larger than the other due to countering the torque from the engine with the rudder.
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Except for the F-15 Eagle, with its near perfection combat record, the P-51 Mustang has the finest record of any plane, from any country, in history.
    I'm a F-14/ F/A-18 fan. How did these two Navy jet warplanes compare in combat records with the Air Force F-15 and F-16s?
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    The Navy's Hellcat, also a damn good plane, shot down more enemy planes than any other in WWII. But, it was in service longer and had more opportunities. The Mustang's air-to-air combat record, in terms of victories vs. losses (percentages) dwarfs any other plane. It was invincible.
    (Bold my emphasis)

    From http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...aft-30227.html

    1) In any single theater of oeprations, the top would be the F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Thearter of Operations. Next would the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.

    2) For the entire war combined, all theaters, it would be the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.

    These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51.

    Since the war, there have been several "revisions" of kills .... sadly. They should let them stand as approved in the conflict of interest, by people in the service at the time. Just my opinion.

    Either way, the Hellcat and Mustang are neck in neck for the title.

    The third-ranking fighter for kills was the P-38, with 3,785 in all Theaters of operation combined. The theater of operations with the most enemy aircraft shot down was the PTO, with 12,666 enemy aircraft shot down.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgpix View Post
    I'm a F-14/ F/A-18 fan. How did these two Navy jet warplanes compare in combat records with the Air Force F-15 and F-16s?
    I don't know but I have flown DACT against all except the F-14 in the F-4G. The F-15 is a fine airplane and the F-4G is no match for it in an air-to-air environment although the F-4G had some capabilities that countered the F-15. We usually flew mixed pairs of F-4G and F-16. When those two aircraft were pitted against and equal number of F-15s the fight got very interesting and often the F-15 had more of a challenge against the different capabilites of the mixed flight. The F-18 was also a very worthy adversary with it's own distinct advantages. Air-to-air isn't what it used to be. The missile capabilities of our front line air defense fighters is not equaled anywhere else in the world. There are very few instances where we will need to go to the merge and dogfight with these missiles now days.
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    I love history and am aware of the many "revisions" that occur. Some are due to honest mistakes, and others to try to make a modern-day political point.

    For instance, by the most accurate records available, somewhere around 30,000 blacks served, fought for the Confederates during the War of Northern Aggression, 1861-1865. Of course, that complicates the forced (farced) view of that conflict, so history has been altered.

    It is also a myth that the 332nd Escort Group (the Tuskegee Airmen, the "Red Tails") never lost a bomber they were protecting. Air Corps records show 25 bombers lost. But, considering the Red Tails flew 212 escort missions, most with 100+ bombers each, that is a remarkable combat record.

    Red Tail stats:

    1,578 total missions
    112 German planes shot down in air-to-air combat (another 150 enemy planes destroyed on the ground)
    98 losses by the Red Tails (66 pilots KIA, 32 shot down, captured)

    To be fair, the Red Tails were given a bunch of very, very tough missions. For instance, escorting a B24 bomber raid deep into German-held Poland, a very long flight, which originated in southern Italy and required the Red Tails to be in the air for more than 7 hours, fight their way in, past anti-aircraft and the best German squadrons still flying, including a tangle with the jets, the ME 262, and then had to fight their way back out. Tough to record impressive stats when you have so many tough missions. The German Luftwaffe was not exactly a bunch of rank amateurs. They had good pilots and good planes too. The ME 190 Fockewolfe was a helluva fine fighter.

    Most importantly, and this is NOT in historic dispute! the Red Tails served their nation with skill, courage and valor.

  11. #11
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgpix View Post
    I'm a F-14/ F/A-18 fan. How did these two Navy jet warplanes compare in combat records with the Air Force F-15 and F-16s?
    I'll have to research that, good question. My quick facts is not clear on the stats. Not sure why.

    The F-16 Falcon is not really an air-to-air fighter. It's role has been close ground support. I'm sure it has had to engage in some "dogfights" though. Seem to remember a few from the 1991 Gulf War.

  12. #12
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Early in WWII the allies knew they needed a new fighter (pursuit aircraft (P)) to match the Germans' ME-109 and the Japs' Zero. Two American engineers were charged with designing a new plane. In just 117 days, the prototype NA-73X was rolled out. Initially fitted with an Allison engine, it could obtain a top speed of 325 mph and had an operational ceiling of 25,000 feet.

    I am surprised some of our engineer-types haven't jumped in with, Hooray for American engineering! From concept to prototype in just 117 days? That seems like a remarkable feat to me.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    I love history and am aware of the many "revisions" that occur. Some are due to honest mistakes, and others to try to make a modern-day political point.

    For instance, by the most accurate records available, somewhere around 30,000 blacks served, fought for the Confederates during the War of Northern Aggression, 1861-1865. Of course, that complicates the forced (farced) view of that conflict, so history has been altered.

    It is also a myth that the 332nd Escort Group (the Tuskegee Airmen, the "Red Tails") never lost a bomber they were protecting. Air Corps records show 25 bombers lost. But, considering the Red Tails flew 212 escort missions, most with 100+ bombers each, that is a remarkable combat record.

    Red Tail stats:

    1,578 total missions
    112 German planes shot down in air-to-air combat (another 150 enemy planes destroyed on the ground)
    98 losses by the Red Tails (66 pilots KIA, 32 shot down, captured)

    To be fair, the Red Tails were given a bunch of very, very tough missions. For instance, escorting a B24 bomber raid deep into German-held Poland, a very long flight, which originated in southern Italy and required the Red Tails to be in the air for more than 7 hours, fight their way in, past anti-aircraft and the best German squadrons still flying, including a tangle with the jets, the ME 262, and then had to fight their way back out. Tough to record impressive stats when you have so many tough missions. The German Luftwaffe was not exactly a bunch of rank amateurs. They had good pilots and good planes too. The ME 190 Fockewolfe was a helluva fine fighter.

    Most importantly, and this is NOT in historic dispute! the Red Tails served their nation with skill, courage and valor.
    I think the stat for the 332nd was that they never lost a bomber due to enemy fighters. AA got some, and mechanical failures the rest.

    Even with 25 losses, it's still one very impressive resume.

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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    And alot of this was done with the P-47 Thunderbolt before the P-51 was introduced...
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    Re: The movie "Red Tails"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne From Minden View Post
    And alot of this was done with the P-47 Thunderbolt before the P-51 was introduced...
    True. I believe the problem with the P-47 was that it was not as fuel efficient as the P-51 and had to leave the bombers unescorted for the last part of those long missions into Germany. The P-51 could make the whole run with the bombers when using external drop tanks which helped to reduce bomber losses to enemy fighters.

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