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Thread: Boston Chick Fil-A

  1. #151
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    It is all about power - basically, the argument is that our sense of justice, fairness and decency are human-based and therefore fallible. According to Christians, god cannot be unjust because he defines what is just - the idea that there are no principles that are higher than god, is in essence believes that god is right because he is powerful enough to make the rules of righteousness. Thus, it must devolve into "might makes right".
    You argument implies an objective justice that is apart from God...

    I think the Christian argument is that God is the definition of goodness. He is the definition of justice and righteousness. We only know those things because we know Him or know enough of Him to form opinions on the subject. It's not as if he changes the rules to fit his desires because he has the power. Justice is at the core of His character...just as love, mercy, and holiness are.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

  2. #152
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    You argument implies an objective justice that is apart from God...

    I think the Christian argument is that God is the definition of goodness. He is the definition of justice and righteousness. We only know those things because we know Him or know enough of Him to form opinions on the subject. It's not as if he changes the rules to fit his desires because he has the power. Justice is at the core of His character...just as love, mercy, and holiness are.
    That is basically what I said. But it ultimately comes down to worshipping power.

  3. #153
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    That is basically what I said. But it ultimately comes down to worshipping power.
    I don't think that follows. Did you agree with my first statement?

  4. #154
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Power:*ability to do or act; capability of doing or accomplishing something.

    Ok, I agree. But your point is shortsighted. It's not about the what...it's about the why behind the what.

    God is love. 1 John 4:8

  5. #155
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    I don't think that follows. Did you agree with my first statement?
    Not exactly - close - but why couldn't there be a higher principle? And why couldn't this just as easily be a test to see if people will pursue good (the type that people learn from interacting with the world) over obedience to a constructed all-powerful being that demands blood atonement and dishes out other punishment that contradict the principles of justice, decency, and fair-dealing that we learn from living in this world that he allegedly created?

  6. #156
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    If god is all powerful, then he must have had a choice as to how he would define morality and justice. The judeo-Christian god chose a very twisted morality and perverted approach to justice (as judged by one that interacts with other beings in the world that the god allegedly created).

  7. #157
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Not exactly - close - but why couldn't there be a higher principle? And why couldn't this just as easily be a test to see if people will pursue good (the type that people learn from interacting with the world) over obedience to a constructed all-powerful being that demands blood atonement and dishes out other punishment that contradict the principles of justice, decency, and fair-dealing that we learn from living in this world that he allegedly created?
    If that were the case, God would be dishonest...that's why it can't be a test.

    I am interested in these principles of justice, decency, and fair-dealing that God contradicts. We don't want justice and fair-dealing because we're left without hope. Christ's willing sacrifice is the only "out" for us as we consistently do not pursue goodness or what is right. We pursue self-promotion each and every time.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    If god is all powerful, then he must have had a choice as to how he would define morality and justice. The judeo-Christian god chose a very twisted morality and perverted approach to justice (as judged by one that interacts with other beings in the world that the god allegedly created).
    God is not free to violate his character...if he did, he would cease to be God. Your opinion of his morality and approach to justice is great, but what is your ground to sit in judgment? I don't mean this in a "how dare you" sense, but I'm trying to understand why you are convinced that your sense of morality and justice is superior to what is explained in the Scripture. What is the right approach and why?
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Why couldn't god be dishonest? Why do you get to make the rules? If god cannot violate his character, then he has limits and cannot be all powerful, You seem to be talking about a god that is different than the judeo-Christian god.

  10. #160
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    I don't need to list all the bible stories where the judeo-Christian god carried out actions that would be considered evil by the standards that men deal with each other, and would be even more evil when viewed from the perspective of a parent and child.

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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Why couldn't god be dishonest? Why do you get to make the rules? If god cannot violate his character, then he has limits and cannot be all powerful, You seem to be talking about a god that is different than the judeo-Christian god.
    A lack of integrity is certainly not a limitation in my book. I won't try to guess at your understanding of the judeo-Christian god. The God of the bible NEVER violates his character. He is never dishonest. The God of the Scripture is immutable. If he has never violated his character before, he never will.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I don't need to list all the bible stories where the judeo-Christian god carried out actions that would be considered evil by the standards that men deal with each other, and would be even more evil when viewed from the perspective of a parent and child.
    No...you just have to validate the "standards that men deal with each other".
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I don't need to list all the bible stories where the judeo-Christian god carried out actions that would be considered evil by the standards that men deal with each other, and would be even more evil when viewed from the perspective of a parent and child.
    I would like to see you list them, or try to.

    I do not claim to understand or know why God does what he does. The beauty of God's plan is that he lets you choose what you want to believe and how you act while on this planet.

    The key is faith. You either believe in God and his word or you don't. And I believe that he is my creator and I choose to worship him, praise him and follow his guidance. Do I try to be the best I can? Yes. Do I get every thing that I want? No, I don't. Do, bad things happen to me? Yes, they do, but it is usually not judgement; it is usually the consequences of what I do. The judgement for me and all individuals will come after we or this world has passed. At that point ALL of us, including you, will believe in God and will know that he is a just God and a God of love. I hope you will not regret your choices and your arrogance/foolishness.

    As it has been said: the funny thing about life is that the game has already been won, we are just trying decide which uniform we are going to wear.

  14. #164
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Two men are standing in a field. One is taken, the other is left behind.

    I take that to mean that half of all humans will end up in "hell" for eternity. No, I don't subscribe to the vision of hell with fire and brimstone, but it is a place where God is not.

    More importantly, God has a place in His kingdom, paradise, for anyone who comes to know and accept Him. We have a free will. What a great gift He has given us. Anyone of us are free to accept or reject Him. Of course, with that comes responsibilty. The fact is, each of us, alone, are responsible for which of the two men in that field will be us.

    Atheists can not complain or whine about the deplorable fate that awaits them. They have made their choice.

    I would be remiss if I didn't state yet again, God will accept anyone who turns to Him. Even those who have spent their Earthly lives rejecting Him, even speaking poorly of Him, would be welcome in paradise...if they would only let Him into their heart. He is all loving and forgiving.

    Unfortunately, too many will never accept Him. But for me, and my family, we serve the Lord.

  15. #165
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    Re: Boston Chick Fil-A

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    A lack of integrity is certainly not a limitation in my book. I won't try to guess at your understanding of the judeo-Christian god. The God of the bible NEVER violates his character. He is never dishonest. The God of the Scripture is immutable. If he has never violated his character before, he never will.
    Lack of integrity defined by your standards or the judeo-Christian god's standards? You are applying your own principles on integrity and honesty much like you accuse me of applying my own standards of justice, decency, and fair-dealing. In doing so, you believe that your god can't do certain things, which seems internally contradictive.

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