Achievement

[Dirtydawg]

I have a question that I'd like to pose. I don't think it's really political, but it could take that turn I guess, so I'm going to post it here. Anyway, here it goes:

What are your opinions on what makes some people more driven than others so that they are able to achieve success however they measure it? By success, I don't mean only millionaires, CEOs, small business owners. For example, I'm also talking about the person that knows they want to be the best high school teacher they can, and that person is able to stay focused on that goal and make the sacrifices needed to reach that goal. Or, the person who wants to be a CEO, top athlete, business owner, inventor, etc... and is able to realize what it will take to reach that goal many times in their early teen years or younger, and then unhesitatingly pursues that goal with a dogged determination that it's nearly and many times, totally, impossible to distract them from achieving success in what they pursue. And most times you see it spill over to other areas of their lives such as their hobbies, etc... so that they also excel in those areas. And then on the flip side, there are those who just seem unmotivated for whatever reason. I'll use myself as an example, and will probably draw some derisive remarks that I'm exaggerating, but I've never really been motivated to accomplish greatness. For example, before there were laser timers and we only had coaches to test us, I consistently ran a 4.4 40 and about an 11 100. I loved playing football but, didn't like the work. I didn't want to run track much to the chagrin of our track coach. I just wanted to have fun. As a result, I was an above average player that no one would want to play for them at the next level because I wasn't motivated. Now, I wasn't shy of working hard. Every job I've had, and every time I've helped others out, they would always tell my dad how hard and conscientious of a worker I was. I just couldn't see ahead at how much I would wish I had taken football more seriously and school as well, so I could have achieved much more success. So, it's not a matter of laziness. I guess for me it was just a matter of not being able to imagine the future vividly enough to make it real.

So, if any of you can understand what I'm trying to ask, what are your thoughts? What separates those who achieve the success they desire as opposed to those who don't? For me, I think it's something different than laziness. Now I will agree, that is the case with many people, but I don't think a broad stroke of the laziness brush is accurate when trying to consider why some people can't seem to find success.

[Dirtydawg]

I do have an ulterior motive for this question. I think sometimes it's genetic as it seems both my sons have inherited the trait of just coasting on their talents. It's almost too late for my oldest, but my 10 year old has a chance for a bright future. He's super gifted athletically, and while he's young enough to still be impressionable, I'd like to be able to break the cycle with him and try to instruct him on what it takes to accomplish his goals. And it doesn't have to be athletically. If he decides he'd just like to be a good high school athlete and a top scholar, that's fine with me. I think it's the best legacy, other than the fact he knows I love him unconditionally, that I think I can leave him because I sure don't have the wealth.

[Guisslapp]

I think the word you are looking for is "ambition" or, in the opposite case, the lack thereof. The formula for ambition might look something like desire + fortitude. I think people that possess the trait see the sacrifices needed to attain their goals as less significant impediments. Whether that is because they are more clearly able to visualize the goal or see the path - seems like it could be either. Then "success" or the rate that it is achieved probably also depends on innate abilities and opportunity.

[maverick]

Not everyone's talents and interests lie in the same places. Sounds like you didn't have trouble working at things you wanted to do--you just also happened to be really good at some things that didn't hold your interest. Could be the same for your sons. Of your younger son, you said, "He's super gifted athletically, and while he's young enough to still be impressionable, I'd like to be able to break the cycle with him and try to instruct him on what it takes to accomplish his goals." Are you sure his goals are athletic ones? Maybe there are other ways to use his talents.

[Dirtydawg]

He loves athletics. He spent several hours watching the NBA combine today. I have no objections to him pursuing what he desires, and would support him in anything he wants.

[dawg80]

Well, DD, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. :icon_wink:

[dawg80]

On a more serious note....as parents we beat ourselves up pushing (and hoping) our kids to do better than we did, and don't make the same mistakes we did. Instead, they usually make new mistakes, ones all their own making. Can "ambition" be a learned behavior? I don't think so. I've raised 4 kids and all 4 are as different as they can be. I was the same during their formative years, always emphasizing those things I thought are important. Like, education and always striving to do your best. Setting somewhat lofty, but attainable goals. My wife and I make them take responsibility for their actions, and suffer the consequences of poor choices (although daddy sometimes bails them out....). As for others I have known....well, I know some VERY ambitious, driven people that will accept nothing less than reaching the summit of their dreams. Whatever those dreams happen to be. Others....well...they just "roll with the flow." It's a personality trait. Frankly, I love being around driven people. There's an old saying, "if you want to be successful, surround yourself with successful people."

[Dirtydawg]

I think the word you are looking for is "ambition" or, in the opposite case, the lack thereof. The formula for ambition might look something like desire + fortitude. I think people that possess the trait see the sacrifices needed to attain their goals as less significant impediments. Whether that is because they are more clearly able to visualize the goal or see the path - seems like it could be either. Then "success" or the rate that it is achieved probably also depends on innate abilities and opportunity.

On a more serious note....as parents we beat ourselves up pushing (and hoping) our kids to do better than we did, and don't make the same mistakes we did. Instead, they usually make new mistakes, ones all their own making. Can "ambition" be a learned behavior? I don't think so. I've raised 4 kids and all 4 are as different as they can be. I was the same during their formative years, always emphasizing those things I thought are important. Like, education and always striving to do your best. Setting somewhat lofty, but attainable goals. My wife and I make them take responsibility for their actions, and suffer the consequences of poor choices (although daddy sometimes bails them out....). As for others I have known....well, I know some VERY ambitious, driven people that will accept nothing less than reaching the summit of their dreams. Whatever those dreams happen to be. Others....well...they just "roll with the flow." It's a personality trait. Frankly, I love being around driven people. There's an old saying, "if you want to be successful, surround yourself with successful people."

I think you've both hit on the line of my thinking. Ambition. So, Dawg80. You don't think it can be learned? What about you Guisslap? Anyone else? Could there be an environmental influence? I'm still thinking about that by thinking of different examples of people I know. Just curious. Even though I know you were sort of tongue in cheek, you are correct, Dawg80 about the apple. That's why I wonder if it's more genetic or possibly environmental. I'm leaning to a combination of the two.

[Guisslapp]

I think it is part how you are wired and part your environment. If you don't want "greatness", knowing precisely how to achieve it probably won't matter much. Also, if you are generally happy with your current lot, you probably won't be as motivated to change it.

[Champ967]

Dirty -- while hard work and sacrifice is almost always admirable, I would submit that ambition becomes a character flaw at some point. The kind of ruthless ambition that prioritizes personal advancement over all else, I'm sure you'll agree, is not a trait to be emulated. (Of course the individuals who possess this trait -- and we've all meet some -- often perceive it as a their greatest strength.)

But I don't figure that's the type of ambition you wish for your children. I would, personally, rather have a lazy kid (disappointing as that would be) over one consumed by an unchecked, Machiavellian ambition.

If your boy loves his life and loves his family, then I'd suggest he's already achieved a greater life success than any ambition will ever deliver.

[Dirtydawg]

Dirty -- while hard work and sacrifice is almost always admirable, I would submit that ambition becomes a character flaw at some point. The kind of ruthless ambition that prioritizes personal advancement over all else, I'm sure you'll agree, is not a trait to be emulated. (Of course the individuals who possess this trait -- and we've all meet some -- often perceive it as a their greatest strength.)

But I don't figure that's the type of ambition you wish for your children. I would, personally, rather have a lazy kid (disappointing as that would be) over one consumed by an unchecked, Machiavellian ambition.

If your boy loves his life and loves his family, then I'd suggest he's already achieved a greater life success than any ambition will ever deliver.

I think few people want their children to possess a ruthless ambition. I'm not wanting my children to use and abuse the good things and people in life to get ahead. I want them to be able to recognize when sacrifice needs to be made an be able to see the accomplishment that sacrifice brings. I don't believe the love of one's life and family and having ambition are mutually exclusive.

[Champ967]

I want them to be able to recognize when sacrifice needs to be made an be able to see the accomplishment that sacrifice brings.

Then -- to your question -- I don't think you can teach that. It's one of those things that young people either come to recognize on their own, or not at all.

[hoppinmad]

I think it is part how you are wired and part your environment.

Well said ... I think you're probably starting to get somewhere ... some achieve/don't achieve, become famous/notorious during their life in spite of themselves. I would suggest it's more complicated still.

[dawg80]

Generally, I think ALL of our personality traits are a combo of how we are wired and the influences of the environment in which we were raised. I took a "leadership" course some years back, and the folks putting it on preached!! that leadership was a learned skill. Leaders are made....not born. Of course they said that, they charged big buck$ to put on those workshops! Nah! you can teach the skill set that leaders generally possess. And, like other traits, you can help someone improve their skills. But, leaders are BORN! You have to be wired in a special way. People gravitate toward natural leaders. And, I think that is true also of ambitious people. They are naturally driven to succeed.

[maverick]

Nature/nurture--the answer to many questions.