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Thread: Old Testament Question

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    Old Testament Question

    It's been several years, and someone had tried explaining it before (I can't find it), but can someone be helpful enough to explain why some things in the old testament are to be lived by and some things aren't? I vaguely remember something about it being because Jesus fulfilled one thing but not another, something along those lines. Like I said, it's been several years.

    I'm asking because every day the last few months, ever day, I am reading comments from everyone from politicians on down to know-nothing-teeny-boppers saying things like "well, if you are so against the gay why are you eating shellfish or wearing blended/mixed garments." sometimes worse and verbose, usually mundane and repetitive. I just would like a reminder and/or clarification on it because even though I freely admit to some of the ones I talk to I'm no theologian scholar, they insist on trying to force me to explain something I know nothing about.

    I hope I'm clear on the request.
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    I like me.

    It's a mockery.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Jesus basically said, and later his disciples also, most of the laws you are referring to are irrelevant. The best example I can give is something that was written by Paul concerning the consumption of certain foods - It is not what goes in to a man that defiles him, but what comes out if him (referring to his spoken words)

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    I'm a Reformed Presbyterian, so keep that in mind per my answer.

    Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, to bring it to its purpose. Everything in the Old Law pointed towards Christ, kept the people of Israel separate from the world, taught them certain things about the way Christ was to be (not always obvious what each law taught). A key thing these laws taught the people was the curse enacted at the Fall, which was enacted against man through the dust of the ground. Even man's own flesh (made of dust) caused him to be unclean. Since God is clean, He desires his people to be. So the Law taught primarily that we are unclean people, and must be cleansed.

    For example, animals without "shoes" (hooves) were unclean because they had nothing to separate them from the unclean ground. If you came into contact with a dead body, it had the same effect. Think of how you would see the world if everything you did was shaped by this constant reminder? Also, remember that Moses at the burning bush was told to remove his shoes: the ground was clean because God was there, Moses had no need of something to keep him from the uncleanness.

    Jesus is the fulfillment of the cleansing from uncleanness. After his final covering for sin, all the various washings and sacrifices that *pointed* to him and *taught* what he would do were discarded because they were no longer needed. He was the first actual Man, the first Clean person, and through him we also are clean and don't need the blood of bulls and goats to make us spotless.

    So things like the dietary laws and circumcisions are no longer commanded because those especially taught the separation of God's people from the world. After Christ's resurrection, the Gospel is for all men without regard to nationality (not that it was precisely exclusive before; the Jews were merely chosen to bear the Light of this coming truth until it was actually revealed). This is demonstrated in Peter's vision of the great sheet with all animals given to him for food: there is no longer any distinction among men except for the Name of Christ.

    Mixed garments were reserved for the priests, as a special uniform. So we have this system that sets apart the Jews from the world, and more separation between the people and the priests, who essentially acted as temple/palace servants to conduct the people to God. Now all Christians have access and even a command to fulfill this role. No need for the separation. The Reformers called this the "priesthood of all believers."

    So both the Old Law and the New Law that it became both point us to Christ and teach us fundamental things about his nature. So the question becomes, does this particular Mosaic Law have more elements that are fulfilled in Christ? If it's been fulfilled, what does it teach us? And if it doesn't seem like it's been "overturned," then what is the modern application of such?

    That is entirely too long an answer. But basically, it boils down to: "Adultery always will be a sin because it strikes at the faithful nature of God and what he expects of his people. Priestly/Israelitic distinctions no longer apply because Christ has brought cleansing to all through his blood."

    Not all may agree with this. But I do a lot of study in Old Testament law and such and this is the gist of what my circles teach. Hope it was helpful.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Don't know why anyone would worship the God of the Old Testament. He was an extreme psychopath that killed people (including innocent children) for anything and everything. The New Testament is easier to sell if you are hoping to grow a religion.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Blue Dawg has it right. Obama started that crap if I remember correctly. I've seen it on some sitcoms / comedy shows too. It's an ignorant and lazy argument. And there's no way to counter it unless you answer with Blue Dawg's 6 paragraphs.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Don't know why anyone would worship the God of the Old Testament. He was an extreme psychopath that killed people (including innocent children) for anything and everything. The New Testament is easier to sell if you are hoping to grow a religion.
    Same guy though.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    It's ironic that people who usually run from reason and logic want to simplify faith by using reason and logic to question something that only an omniscient God can understand.
    "eye fo an eye and toof fo a toof" - Idiot in Missouri

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by T1 View Post
    Same guy though.
    Jealous, envious, tyrannical mass-murdering psychopath. Also, a terrorist. Unworthy of worship. But a concoction of the naive and pre-enlightened human mind.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Jealous, envious, tyrannical mass-murdering psychopath. Also, a terrorist. Unworthy of worship. But a concoction of the naive and pre-enlightened human mind.
    He is to be feared for sure. But he's also ultimate love and compassion and just. If he is who you think he is, Jews and Christians would behave like Muslim terrorists.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Although, I bet the Jews were probably considered terrorists a long time ago when they were taking/receiving the promised land.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by T1 View Post
    He is to be feared for sure. But he's also ultimate love and compassion and just. If he is who you think he is, Jews and Christians would behave like Muslim terrorists.
    Didn't have much compassion for the kids and babies he killed.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Didn't have much compassion for the kids and babies he killed.
    He is just though, and his ways are not our ways. You don't believe that, but I do.

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    Re: Old Testament Question

    I love Blue Dawg's summary and T1 and MD's comments.

    Let me just add Christ's statement on this topic for the time being.

    Parallel Verses Matthew 5:17
    New International Version


    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.



    "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.



    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.



    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.



    Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill.



    "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.



    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Parallel Commentaries
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    5:17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God's holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ's justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian's rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ's disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ's righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man's temper and conduct.




  14. #14
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    Re: Old Testament Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Don't know why anyone would worship the God of the Old Testament. He was an extreme psychopath that killed people (including innocent children) for anything and everything. The New Testament is easier to sell if you are hoping to grow a religion.
    God didn't "kill" anyone. He brought judgment upon sin. Sin brings consequences. We will all experience the refining fire in some manner. Sin is the villain Guisslap. We make the choice. God draws everyone to Himself. Unfortunately, many resist and choose death and cursing even when He recommended life and blessing. We are judged at the cross, or .....
    A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind. Prov 18:2
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    Re: Old Testament Question

    I highly recommend a wonderful tool for Bible study:
    e-Sword. It is free, and a fabulous piece of software.


    http://www.e-sword.net/
    A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind. Prov 18:2
    (OLDBLUE does not necessarily express the opinion of the owner of the moniker OLDBLUE, or its staff. Any inference to that validity is expressly denied by the owner of the OLDBLUE moniker. Should any such posted remark seem irresponsible or mean, send hate mail and terse responses directly to OLDBLUE's PM for OLDBLUE's official explination. Snotty responses on the open forum will not be tolerated and may result in immediate and aggressive legal response.)

    "It is only when you do not have hope in a society that you join a suicide bomber team." - G.W. Bush, the hated President
    "Life without Hope in Christ is spiritual suicide" - Cowpatty, a little stinker

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