Old Testament Question

[Built4Speed]

God didn't "kill" anyone. He brought judgment upon sin.

Job would probably disagree here, but otherwise, your point stands.

[Rooster]

It's ironic that people who usually run from reason and logic want to simplify faith by using reason and logic to question something that only an omniscient God can understand.

Spot on brother as usual

[PawDawg]

Job would probably disagree here, but otherwise, your point stands.

Job stood strong in his faith. He questioned God, which is encouraged, but he remained strong in his faith and he ended up with more riches after the the "rough spot" than before.

[Guisslapp]

God didn't "kill" anyone. He brought judgment upon sin. Sin brings consequences. We will all experience the refining fire in some manner. Sin is the villain Guisslap. We make the choice. God draws everyone to Himself. Unfortunately, many resist and choose death and cursing even when He recommended life and blessing. We are judged at the cross, or .....

Not with fire and brimstone from the heavens? Not with a flood?

[KSDAWG]

I'm a Reformed Presbyterian, so keep that in mind per my answer.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, to bring it to its purpose. Everything in the Old Law pointed towards Christ, kept the people of Israel separate from the world, taught them certain things about the way Christ was to be (not always obvious what each law taught). A key thing these laws taught the people was the curse enacted at the Fall, which was enacted against man through the dust of the ground. Even man's own flesh (made of dust) caused him to be unclean. Since God is clean, He desires his people to be. So the Law taught primarily that we are unclean people, and must be cleansed.

For example, animals without "shoes" (hooves) were unclean because they had nothing to separate them from the unclean ground. If you came into contact with a dead body, it had the same effect. Think of how you would see the world if everything you did was shaped by this constant reminder? Also, remember that Moses at the burning bush was told to remove his shoes: the ground was clean because God was there, Moses had no need of something to keep him from the uncleanness.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the cleansing from uncleanness. After his final covering for sin, all the various washings and sacrifices that *pointed* to him and *taught* what he would do were discarded because they were no longer needed. He was the first actual Man, the first Clean person, and through him we also are clean and don't need the blood of bulls and goats to make us spotless.

So things like the dietary laws and circumcisions are no longer commanded because those especially taught the separation of God's people from the world. After Christ's resurrection, the Gospel is for all men without regard to nationality (not that it was precisely exclusive before; the Jews were merely chosen to bear the Light of this coming truth until it was actually revealed). This is demonstrated in Peter's vision of the great sheet with all animals given to him for food: there is no longer any distinction among men except for the Name of Christ.

Mixed garments were reserved for the priests, as a special uniform. So we have this system that sets apart the Jews from the world, and more separation between the people and the priests, who essentially acted as temple/palace servants to conduct the people to God. Now all Christians have access and even a command to fulfill this role. No need for the separation. The Reformers called this the "priesthood of all believers."

So both the Old Law and the New Law that it became both point us to Christ and teach us fundamental things about his nature. So the question becomes, does this particular Mosaic Law have more elements that are fulfilled in Christ? If it's been fulfilled, what does it teach us? And if it doesn't seem like it's been "overturned," then what is the modern application of such?

That is entirely too long an answer. But basically, it boils down to: "Adultery always will be a sin because it strikes at the faithful nature of God and what he expects of his people. Priestly/Israelitic distinctions no longer apply because Christ has brought cleansing to all through his blood."

Not all may agree with this. But I do a lot of study in Old Testament law and such and this is the gist of what my circles teach. Hope it was helpful.

GREAT STUFF!! BD, who would have thunk they would have a few enlightened people in Richland Parish, but less Presbyterians!

[KSDAWG]

Not with fire and brimstone from the heavens? Not with a flood?

In the horrid earthly world we live in today, I find it pretty easy to believe that God's Wrath was justified.

[Guisslapp]

In the horrid earthly world we live in today, I find it pretty easy to believe that God's Wrath was justified.

To kill babies and kids? That is twisted thinking.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

God didn't "kill" anyone. He brought judgment upon sin. Sin brings consequences. We will all experience the refining fire in some manner. Sin is the villain Guisslap. We make the choice. God draws everyone to Himself. Unfortunately, many resist and choose death and cursing even when He recommended life and blessing. We are judged at the cross, or .....

Exactly!!

Job would probably disagree here, but otherwise, your point stands.

God allowed Satan to test and sift him as an example to Satan that man could still be faithful under terrible circumstances. But as MD states below he persevered and was rewarded by God.

Job stood strong in his faith. He questioned God, which is encouraged, but he remained strong in his faith and he ended up with more riches after the the "rough spot" than before.

[DONW]

In order to understand the Bible, one needs to go back and look at the history of why it was written. It was written because a Roman Emperor commanded Monks to write it to bring his people together because he felt like he was losing control of his empire. Only a few people back then gathered in churches as they do today and they all had different books and gospels they liked to read in their homes. The monks went throughout the country gathering those writings. The ones they liked, they put in the Bible, and the ones they didn't, they burned. Some of the writings were buried before the monks could get them and were discovered hundreds of years later. Some of these were The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Book of Enoch, The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, The Gospel of Thomas, and The Gospel of Philip. The Gospel of Mary Magdalene and The Book of Enoch are two of the most amazing writings I've ever read.

The Bible is full of contradictions and duplication and some of the strangest stuff you will ever read. Here's two strange verses in Numbers: Chapter 31 verses 17 and 18, "Now, therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But, all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Were the monks drinking a lot of wine when this was written? There are lots of strange verses like this throughout the Bible. I would suggest that everybody should read the Bible to find out what's in it, or at least read the first four chapters. Find one that is an old print that is a duplicate of the King James version that was first written in English in 1539. Many of the newer Bibles have had a lot of editing. Thomas Paine, one of our founding fathers, wrote a really good book called "The Age of Reason" where he discusses a lot of the strange verses in the Bible.

[DONW]

Not with fire and brimstone from the heavens? Not with a flood?

Here's a verse about killing people with fire. Deuteronomy; 9:3, Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face; so shalt drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the Lord hath said unto thee.

Here's another one in Numbers, chapter 11, verse one, where God killed some of the Jews with fire because they pissed him off.

[Guisslapp]

Here's a verse about killing people with fire. Deuteronomy; 9:3, Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face; so shalt drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the Lord hath said unto thee.

And Gen 19:24.

[skilldawg]

Not with fire and brimstone from the heavens? Not with a flood?

I assume you are referring to Sodom and Gommorah and other instances where God is noted as instructing the Israelites to kill all, including the women and children, when they took part in the war of conquest with Joshua.

I think those are valid observations and admit that I struggled with those passages for years. I thought the same thing as you, apparently, in that I didn't see how the God of the Old Testament fit with the God of the New Testament. (Although I don't think I ever characterized him as a psychopath or a terrorist). Perhaps that may be an indicator of perspective. I questioned my faith and it appears you are questioning other's faith?

Regardless, I sought instruction from other believers who were much wiser and intelligent than myself, many of whom were teachers and preachers whose works survive long after their deaths.

The explanation that resonated, and continues to resonate, with me is that the entire purpose of the law, particularly the sacrificial system, was to lay a foundation for Christ to come and bring redemption into the world.

Every time a devout Jew took his sacrifice to the temple, he was instructed that the sacrifice was anticipatory of the coming redeemer.

I have come to believe that every action that God took, particularly those that appear harsh or unloving, was also to further the entrance of the redeemer into the world.

If every Christian became a Muslim, would there be any more Christians?

If every Jew intermarried with pagan faiths, would their be any true Jews left to propagate the blood line and to ultimately help usher in the Jewish Messiah?

All of those boring passages of so and so begat so and so is actually a recitation of the blood lineage of Jesus and every last one of those people were of the Jewish faith (some after marriage into the faith). When viewed from that perspective, it becomes easy for me to see the "harshness" of God as actually acts of love for mankind. The kill them all orders were specifically related to don't taint your faith by mingling with the pagan faiths all around you. All was done in furtherance of the ultimate act of love, the sacrifice of the perfect one for our redemption. Some may mock that perspective, but it is recorded several times that the number of righteous believers got dramatically low, exactly because they didn't always follow the harsh instructions of God and did in fact inter-marry or in essence convert to another faith ( I am thinking of the Jews that partook in the pagan temple whores here).

Before anybody objects, the need for ethnic purity, which was actually spiritual purity, obviously passed away the instant that Christ rose from death.

[Guisslapp]

That is kind of like a fireman setting fires to justify the need to have firemen. Arbitrarily brutal. Evil. The love of such a god is kind of like battered-wife or Stockholm Syndrome. He does terrible things to people, but he is good because he (and his followers) say he is.

[skilldawg]

That is kind of like a fireman setting fires to justify the need to have firemen. Arbitrarily brutal. Evil. The love of such a god is kind of like battered-wife or Stockholm Syndrome. He does terrible things to people, but he is good because he (and his followers) say he is.

Well if you don't believe that there is evil in the world, in a real and spiritual sense, you can make the same mistake that a lot of people make (both inside and outside of the faith) in blaming a whole lot of crap on God.

Satan is called the god (little g) of this world in scripture. I would submit that there is a whole lot of biblical support for him being the one setting the fires.

[sportkid]

That is kind of like a fireman setting fires to justify the need to have firemen. Arbitrarily brutal. Evil. The love of such a god is kind of like battered-wife or Stockholm Syndrome. He does terrible things to people, but he is good because he (and his followers) say he is.

I'm hoping that you can find a good bible study near you as it seems you are looking at the bible from a world view and it can be easily misunderstood from that vantage point. If you are truly interested in getting the true answer to your questions, I would strongly suggest that. You may be surprised at what you will find.

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe in?