Then you're at a distinct advantage. You choose a book for me and I'll read it if you read the book I suggested...unless of course you've already read Bruce's The Canon of Scripture.Originally Posted by DONW
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Then you're at a distinct advantage. You choose a book for me and I'll read it if you read the book I suggested...unless of course you've already read Bruce's The Canon of Scripture.
This is a quote from his book and this is the way I felt after I read the Old Testament. "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."-Thomas Payne
I'll look it up on Amazon and read some of the reviews.
If I had my wife and children in an SUV, I slandered you verbally and hit the accelerator heading toward your family, and you had the remote in your hand controlling and explosive device located on the underside of the vehicle, what would you do? And would that make you cruel?
I thought we were discussing the Old Testament? What does this have to do with the Old Testament. I would call muslims killing people in the name of religion to be cruel.
you are discussing the Old Testament. I'm discussing God's nature in the context of the bible in its entirety. My post is directly relevant to His nature in regards to your and Mr. Paine's theory on the Old Testament.
The God of the Old Testament would probably send a plague on humanity.
not all of humanity...
So why don't you answer my question since Don doesn't want to play?
I'll pose an easier question to answer, one like-minded to many others in this thread. Every cell in our body is coded with 4 chemicals. They line up in sequence. There are multiple billions per cell. They work very similarly to 1s and 0s in computer code by telling the cell exactly what to do. The code is very similar and works very similarly across all organisms. How is this complex structure and physiology possible? Can it be random chance? Does it make sense that a process could start from nothing, by chance, and evolve over thousands of years into something so complex?
I was thinking this morning about this post and your other comments on the human mind and the idea of its creating and evolving the concept of God. I have what I think is an interesting analogy. Music, something just as ancient, has gone through a very similarly progressive relationship with man as you describe above, only...the beginning and current points on the progression scale are opposite from your point. In the age of what I will call "formal" music...or perhaps "structured" is a better word...beginning in the Baroque Period, rules in music were very strict. Music was to be pleasing, disciplined, ordered, balanced, and in harmony with...whatever. As a composer, if you broke a rule, you must have been inspired by satan and you and your music were full of evil. People literally would riot.
Over the centuries, music has evolved through our evolving understanding of it, and the math and science behind it. We have pushed the boundaries, challenged the establishment, and expanded our minds creatively. Some of the most beautiful music ever written is full of asymmetry and dissonance...but then, what is the definition of "beautiful?" We have generally accepted that not all music must be "beautiful" to be considered a masterpiece...though the degree to which this is true is quite subjective and varies incredibly based on most of the same influences that we find when examining religion around the world. We (at least those in the field) have greatly expanded our definition of "music" and the methods and techniques used to produce it. We have embraced silence as a major component of sound. We have dumbed it down, packaged it, marketed it, and sold it to the masses for profit. Today, unless it breaks the rules and pushes the envelope, its considered boring. Music has digressed from its civilized origins.
Yet, throughout, and in spite of, this evolution through our...take your pick: understanding/enlightenment/advancement/perversion/deconstruction/corruption...of musical form, the fundamental elements of music remain constant. Its nature remains unchanged. It is our understanding, perception, and manipulation of it which evolve, along with our choice of what to like and what not to like.
I see this as parallel to your God argument.
Yes, it makes sense. Especially when you consider the near infinite chances (vastness of the universe and length of time) there could have been for that chance to occur.
I use my phone to post on this board, so I will provide a link in this instance to explain more about this concept. But I really think it only seems kind of magical when we look at it from a bias or native-favoritism to our own particular human form. We aren't the only viable form of life and we probably aren't even the only viable form of conscious life.
http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutio...robability.htm
I don't know. Are you asking me now to suppose that your God is going to all of a sudden behave rationally? The god I see in the Old Testament is whimsical and exhibits child like emotions.
Music is tricky because by what standard are you going to judge it. How well it sells? It's critical acclaim? The two have virtually no relationship to each other today. E.g., compare album sales to aggregated music critic ratings on metacritic. I generally find my tastes more aligned with aggregated critics than the consuming masses, but not surprisingly most of my friends are the opposite.
I think we have gained dominion over sound to such a large extent that the music fundamentals are a near given, and it isn't hard to create music that achieves old ideals of melody, harmony, rhythm and composition. We can produce classic instrument sounds (and simulate expressivity) very well with electronic doodads and software. Even the novice can have dominion over the sound and the rules now. All he has to do is buy GarageBand and he can produce his own slick music. It doesn't take the same level of commitment to attain the classic skills and knowledge, so it isn't rewarded as much.
From my perspective, music is just another form of creative work to express ideas and emotions. Breaking standards is just one tool of the trade. It is an element of creativity and makes your idea different than others.
I asked a simple question, what would you do?
What is rational, whimsical, and childish is determined based on your perspective and personal experience. You have to concede that others' perspectives will differ.
Personally I would blow you up to save my family (assuming there wasn't some other way to divert your car or incapacitate you). You slandering me would have no bearing on me.
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