Obama: Take Military equipment from Police now

[Soonerdawg]

You are over simplifying the term militarization of police. In the is era, the bad parts of town resemble something more of a war zone. I would know better than anybody on this board about it. Just yesterday,a kid, I had arrested for drugs and illegal possession of a firearm 4 years ago, shot and killed another guy and wounded a ten year old at a party just down the street from where I sit right now. This is in WINNSBORO NOT ATLANTA!!! You expect Barney Fife with his one bullet and six shot revolver to go into Compton and break up a gun fight between Cripps and Bloods? Paramilitary training and proper equipment are absolutely needed just to survive and go home to our families. Cops are local citizens who are dedicated to their communities not brainwashed storm troopers as the media likes to portray.

It may resemble a war zone, but it is not a war zone by any stretch of the term.

The collateral damage you just described is caused by criminalizing drugs. We had that same collateral damage when alcohol was illegal. We do not need to exacerbate the damage by more collateral damage to citizens caused by Barney Fife using military tactics.

It sounds like you are in law enforcement. Even knowing that, I am not willing to accept the collateral damages to innocent citizens caused by your military operation of superior force and so-called acceptable collateral damage to innocent civilians, to protect the lives of the police.

But, most importantly, I don't want to see the day when that paramilitary force is turned on its citizens. It will happen eventually.

Militarization of police work is third world tactics.

[Soonerdawg]

Not to over simplify this, but knowing how our President thinks, this is about taking away the ability of the police to control a mob. He is in favor of mob. He and his kind LOVE a mob and everything they don't stand for. The most recent examples are in Missouri and looks like Chicago could be next.

I definitely agree with your premise. To justify centralization of power, a goal Obama clearly has, he needs chaos.

The solution is what I don't agree with. Tiananmen Square was broken up with military force. Don't think for a minute our government wouldn't do that. Do we want the mayor of a city making that call?

[KSDAWG]

This argument always bothers me. Difficult to explain why. Just doesn't sit well.

What about it bothers you? Its a truthful statement. I have sat in the car in my driveway many times trying to compose myself before going into the house so I won't freak out or upset my wife. I have woken up in the middle of the night sweating profusely and almost in tears because of some of the messed up stuff I saw that day. Those close calls add up when you are dealing with people who don't want to go to jail, or know that no matter how bad they act the burden of proof is on your actions. 21 feet is the reactionary gap between life and death and I have seen very few police interactions from that far away.

[Soonerdawg]

Side note: Obama only taking away military stuff from LE Agencies that speak out against him.

I don't want Obama interfering in our affairs. You and I disagree on this issue. Fine. You and I can work this out. I don't need his input or help.

[Soonerdawg]

This argument always bothers me. Difficult to explain why. Just doesn't sit well.

Me either.

Yes, I read your post. ;-)

[KSDAWG]

It may resemble a war zone, but it is not a war zone by any stretch of the term.

The collateral damage you just described is caused by criminalizing drugs. We had that same collateral damage when alcohol was illegal. We do not need to exacerbate the damage by more collateral damage to citizens caused by Barney Fife using military tactics.

It sounds like you are in law enforcement. Even knowing that, I am not willing to accept the collateral damages to innocent citizens caused by your military operation of superior force and so-called acceptable collateral damage to innocent civilians, to protect the lives of the police.

But, most importantly, I don't want to see the day when that paramilitary force is turned on its citizens. It will happen eventually.

Militarization of police work is third world tactics.

Bull Shit!! You don't have any clue do you? Blaming the laws for causing criminals is a cop out and you should be ashamed for even arguing it.
It is a fricking war zone, not something resembling it. They kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down peoples houses. Yeah that's great! Lets not train our police to do their jobs. Exacerbate the damage? Do you know how rare actual collateral damage of "citizens actually occurs? Do you know how rare that damage is caused by Cops? Hardly ever. To boot, these gang bangers and rioters are often hidden and protected by your civilians. Criminals these days are just as equipped as the cops patrolling the streets and with no training or rules of engagement to abide by. The most important part you aren't realizing is that that paramilitary force "Cops" are gonna be whats keeping Soldiers from kicking down your door and dragging you off when the shit hits the fan. Local cops are the most conservative, and usually anti government folks in the country. Cops aren't the bad guys and they need as much military training as possible. You have this Utopian ideology where there are just tons of innocent people in the horrible communities that Cop's are terrorizing when in fact just like the Syrian Refugees, they refuse to fight for their neighborhoods themselves. They rarely appreciate you getting that kid that shot up their house last week off the street. I tell you what! Frick it!! Let the cops just go home and let your defend your own shit. See how innocent those citizens are when they are busting out your windows to take what you bought and paid for because you don't think a cops life is worth protecting.

[KSDAWG]

I don't want Obama interfering in our affairs. You and I disagree on this issue. Fine. You and I can work this out. I don't need his input or help.

I don't want Obama interfering in any of our affairs. Giving police Department government surplus has been around for decades. He is disarming the people on our team not his!!

[KSDAWG]

I was a Cop for 5 years. Grew up the son of a defense lawyer. Grandson of a Judge and Great Grandson of a Sheriff. I have seen all sides of this. Police aren't the enemy most of the time but they are easily the scapegoat for both sides.

P.S. Police State is a misnomer. Its the Army and UN peacekeepers that will be doing all the dirty work.

[KSDAWG]

Forgive me. I get so fired up when I see and hear some of the rationalizations about how this is a good thing. Let me explain and break it down from a complete law enforcement perspective and I will leave it at that.

1 The US government takes surplus materials like transport vehicles, ammo, outdated rifles, riot gear ect.. and allows LEA "Law Enforcement Agencies" to bid on it sorta. They must establish a reason for needing it first. Most LEA are broke and cannot afford to properly equip their departments will a lot of this stuff. When a certain bank robbery occurred in the early nineties, it became obviously that local police officers with 6 shot revolvers and no bullet proof vest were not equipped to handle the modern day criminal. Over the course of the last 5 years since the 60s criminals as a whole had become more emboldened, more dangerous and more likely to take risk. Many of these "Cop Killers" became famous, almost deified. It was like they were freedom fighters.
2. The Drug wars in Miami and California also escalated the issue with foreign entities bringing in both drugs and cheap automatic weapons illegally across the border. The War on Drugs was a huge mistake. Just like Prohibition, it created an underground market for criminal enterprises. Something had to be done, but this wasn't the answer. Marijuana is not the problem, but crack cocaine and meth are some of the main causes of despair and impoverishment in poorer communities. Drug dealers are making billions fueling this fire and they will kill whomever to keep it that way.
3. The LA riots sparked an era where, when something didn't go their way people would use it as an excuse to destroy, riot, steal and kill their neighborhood. Cops had to take new approaches to handling this type of activity because now thanks to Liberals and the Media, they could no longer quell them using justifiable violent tactics. Ferguson has shown that it is almost a criminal act to defend yourself as a cop from a violent criminal twice your size who is trying to kill you. Now are their bad cops? Hell yes. Are their Cops that have no business being in the profession? Absolutly, but when you can make more money being on welfare and spawning dozens of children than sacrificing your life for a community that doesn't appreciate you, who the hell do you expect to take that job?
4. President Obama is taking away what he can for several reasons.
a. The loudest opponents of gun control are law enforcement people in small to medium size communities and Associations like The National Sheriff's Association.
b. After many of the unconstitutional state laws were passed in Oregon, Colorado and New York, many of the non suburban county LEA refuse to comply and stated that they would not abide by these laws.
c. With the stroke of a pen, he can take the teeth out of these enemies while also currying favor from the BLM folks and Illegal Immigration Folks. BTW, Who do you call when those people are burning your store or robbing you?
d. What is the first line of defense that anyone implementing Marshall law would face? Local cops with military grade weapons and training.

[Soonerdawg]

"

Bull Shit!! You don't have any clue do you? Blaming the laws for causing criminals is a cop out and you should be ashamed for even arguing it.
It is a fricking war zone, not something resembling it. They kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down peoples houses. Yeah that's great! Lets not train our police to do their jobs. Exacerbate the damage? Do you know how rare actual collateral damage of "citizens actually occurs? Do you know how rare that damage is caused by Cops? Hardly ever. To boot, these gang bangers and rioters are often hidden and protected by your civilians. Criminals these days are just as equipped as the cops patrolling the streets and with no training or rules of engagement to abide by. The most important part you aren't realizing is that that paramilitary force "Cops" are gonna be whats keeping Soldiers from kicking down your door and dragging you off when the shit hits the fan. Local cops are the most conservative, and usually anti government folks in the country. Cops aren't the bad guys and they need as much military training as possible. You have this Utopian ideology where there are just tons of innocent people in the horrible communities that Cop's are terrorizing when in fact just like the Syrian Refugees, they refuse to fight for their neighborhoods themselves. They rarely appreciate you getting that kid that shot up their house last week off the street. I tell you what! Frick it!! Let the cops just go home and let your defend your own shit. See how innocent those citizens are when they are busting out your windows to take what you bought and paid for because you don't think a cops life is worth protecting.

Do you really believe there is not signidficant collateral damage to innocent citizens caused by drug laws? Thousands every year. Thousands. All to protect a person from themself.

Just curious, have you fought in a war?

[Soonerdawg]

L

Bull Shit!! You don't have any clue do you? Blaming the laws for causing criminals is a cop out and you should be ashamed for even arguing it.
It is a fricking war zone, not something resembling it. They kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down peoples houses. Yeah that's great! Lets not train our police to do their jobs. Exacerbate the damage? Do you know how rare actual collateral damage of "citizens actually occurs? Do you know how rare that damage is caused by Cops? Hardly ever. To boot, these gang bangers and rioters are often hidden and protected by your civilians. Criminals these days are just as equipped as the cops patrolling the streets and with no training or rules of engagement to abide by. The most important part you aren't realizing is that that paramilitary force "Cops" are gonna be whats keeping Soldiers from kicking down your door and dragging you off when the shit hits the fan. Local cops are the most conservative, and usually anti government folks in the country. Cops aren't the bad guys and they need as much military training as possible. You have this Utopian ideology where there are just tons of innocent people in the horrible communities that Cop's are terrorizing when in fact just like the Syrian Refugees, they refuse to fight for their neighborhoods themselves. They rarely appreciate you getting that kid that shot up their house last week off the street. I tell you what! Frick it!! Let the cops just go home and let your defend your own shit. See how innocent those citizens are when they are busting out your windows to take what you bought and paid for because you don't think a cops life is worth protecting.

I overestimate the collateral damage? The collateral damage Is tremendous. The yearly casualties are in the multiple thousands. in your own words, they "kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down housed." Translation: collateral damage.

Drug laws cause that collateral damage. If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe Milton Friedman:

http://youtu.be/nLsCC0LZxkY

I didn't blame all of that collateral damage on the police. But, I know that the instances of storming houses for drug raids causes babies to be killed and address mistakes are far too frequent to justify the use of military tactics to enforce the laws against citizens.

As for it being a war zone, just curious, have you fought in a foreign war? The war zones described to me didn't sound like slums to me. The fact that a former law enforcement officer sees it as a war zone is disconcerting if not frightening.

You know I never said the police were bad. You know I never said the police need to go home. Do you work at Mizzou now? That type of argument is right out of their playbook.

What I did say was that I didn't want to militarize the police.

[KSDAWG]

"

Do you really believe there is not signidficant collateral damage to innocent citizens caused by drug laws? Thousands every year. Thousands. All to protect a person from themself.

Just curious, have you fought in a war?

I believe that the collateral damage cause by drugs is certainly not at the feet of law enforcement. I believe that Drug laws are in desperate need of reform.
No, I have not served in combat. I have fought for my life on several occasions with people who intended to kill me. Does that count? You are now mincing words. You can call it a War on Drugs, but War Zone is taboo? Go to several 3rd world countries where factions are fighting each other for either turf or influence and then go to the South side of Monroe, The Bottom in Shreveport of any of the housing projects in Tallulah and Lake Providence at night. The difference would be trivial at best. Did I serve my Country oversees? NO, some days I wish I had, but I did lay my life on the line in some of the worst places in this state and the US to protect the folks living in those neighborhoods.

[KSDAWG]

L

I overestimate the collateral damage? The collateral damage Is tremendous. The yearly casualties are in the multiple thousands. in your own words, they "kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down housed." Translation: collateral damage.

Drug laws cause that collateral damage. If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe Milton Friedman:

http://youtu.be/nLsCC0LZxkY

I didn't blame all of that collateral damage on the police. But, I know that the instances of storming houses for drug raids causes babies to be killed and address mistakes are far too frequent to justify the use of military tactics to enforce the laws against citizens.

As for it being a war zone, just curious, have you fought in a foreign war? The war zones described to me didn't sound like slums to me. The fact that a former law enforcement officer sees it as a war zone is disconcerting if not frightening.

You know I never said the police were bad. You know I never said the police need to go home. Do you work at Mizzou now? That type of argument is right out of their playbook.

What I did say was that I didn't want to militarize the police.

Give me a break!! You blame the degradation of parts of society on Laws passed to protect that society?? And.....you want to disarm the police officers trying to protect that society. Get out of your cloud city, you know nothing of the realities around you, just a trumped up pipe dream. Your instances???? You pick and choose what data you want to display as fact and discard the rest that would show you to be fraudulently championing a loser's cause

[Woof!]

Militarization of police work is third world tactics.

Yep, people don't understand us.

[KSDAWG]

L

I overestimate the collateral damage? The collateral damage Is tremendous. The yearly casualties are in the multiple thousands. in your own words, they "kill children, they shoot up neighborhoods, they burn down housed." Translation: collateral damage.

Drug laws cause that collateral damage. If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe Milton Friedman:

http://youtu.be/nLsCC0LZxkY

I didn't blame all of that collateral damage on the police. But, I know that the instances of storming houses for drug raids causes babies to be killed and address mistakes are far too frequent to justify the use of military tactics to enforce the laws against citizens.

As for it being a war zone, just curious, have you fought in a foreign war? The war zones described to me didn't sound like slums to me. The fact that a former law enforcement officer sees it as a war zone is disconcerting if not frightening.

You know I never said the police were bad. You know I never said the police need to go home. Do you work at Mizzou now? That type of argument is right out of their playbook.

What I did say was that I didn't want to militarize the police.

You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground and this conversation is doing nothing but pissing me off. To be frank the fact that there are people like you out there so out of touch with reality is whats disconcerting and very frightening. I am out.