Faith and Repentance In orthodox Christianity

[johnnylightnin]

In an effort not to derail the Presidential thread, I figured I would start this one. I can't remember where we left off, so I will just state my position.

Faith and repentance are the same act or state of being viewed from different perspectives. To repent means to turn or change. Salvation, then, is turning away from whatever you formerly had faith in (yourself, your money, etc) and placing your faith in Christ. It is impossible, then, to have faith without repentance.

What this does not mean: You can have faith, then fall into sin and you lose your salvation. It does mean that, if after a profession of faith, there is no sign of repentance (and thus, no sign of faith), it is a very good indication that the profession of faith was not genuine.

I guess that'll be enough to get started. Any disagreements so far Monty?

[Blue Dawg]

A few relevant verses:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Important to note that repentance and forgiveness are still important even if you (like many Christians) hold to "once saved always saved." (I have some semantic and other disagreements with this but that's not the point). Even in this case, we still sin, which must be dealt with by pointing to Christ who paid the penalty for same. Salvation refers more to Christ's renewal of the fundamental nature of man.

Any Reformed/Calvinists here?

[PawDawg]

Kris accepts Jesus as his savior. He prays the "sinners prayer", ask for forgiveness, and does well for a couple of months staying on the wagon while attending the local CR. Kris has a bad day, and being a brand new Christian, does not know how to tap into the Grace that he has been given. He falls off the wagon gets drunk, goes to a bar, strikes out, gets in a fight, gets thrown in jail...his life is a mess again.

He is certainly a "back slider", but he did not lose salvation because he didn't remain repentant.

[johnnylightnin]

He is certainly a "back slider", but he did not lose salvation because he didn't remain repentant.

I don't think the things you described necessarily mean that he didn't remain repentant. Repentance is a posture, not an action.

Beyond that, what does it mean that Kris accepted Jesus as his savior?

[PawDawg]

Beyond that, what does it mean that Kris accepted Jesus as his savior?

Romans 10:9, 10:13
John 3:16

[techman05]

Here is another one for you. Does the Bible actually say that WE should ASK for forgiveness?

The way I understand it, Jesus died once to cover(forgive) all sin. We repent each time we stray, but how many times do we hear someone pray, "forgive me Lord......". Now, I don't think it is wrong to ask forgiveness because that, in a way, is confessing our sin. The critical part is repentance.

On the question you raise, I don't believe that anyone can lose salvation of the commitment was genuine. That being said only you and God know the answer to that.

[PawDawg]

I don't believe that anyone can lose salvation of the commitment was genuine. That being said only you and God know the answer to that.

Apparently one can achieve a certain level of righteousness and become one who can make that call.

[johnnylightnin]

Apparently one can achieve a certain level of righteousness and become one who can make that call.

The church has been charged since its founding with accepting or rejecting professions. Does that mean they make the decision? Of course not, but they are certainly called to evaluate such things.

[PawDawg]

The church has been charged since its founding with accepting or rejecting professions. Does that mean they make the decision? Of course not, but they are certainly called to evaluate such things.

Is that biblical?

[johnnylightnin]

Is that biblical?

Absolutely. Matthew 18 is the clearest teaching on it, but Paul speaks of rebuking and correcting and the penalty of remaining in sin despite professing salvation.

It is biblical and that's the most important thing. It is also VERY baptist. 100 years ago, 4% of a typical congregation would be brought up on church discipline charges each year. About half of those would be excommunicated. When you receive a new member in a baptist church, you receive those who are coming from a sister baptist church "by letter". That letter was a statement that the member was in good standing. What is good standing? It means that, to the best of the church's knowledge, the member is walking with Christ in faith and repentance.

[johnnylightnin]

Good resource on membership: http://9marks.org/article/journalchu...ship-biblical/

[PawDawg]

Absolutely. Matthew 18 is the clearest teaching on it, but Paul speaks of rebuking and correcting and the penalty of remaining in sin despite professing salvation.

It is biblical and that's the most important thing. It is also VERY baptist. 100 years ago, 4% of a typical congregation would be brought up on church discipline charges each year. About half of those would be excommunicated. When you receive a new member in a baptist church, you receive those who are coming from a sister baptist church "by letter". That letter was a statement that the member was in good standing. What is good standing? It means that, to the best of the church's knowledge, the member is walking with Christ in faith and repentance.

A lot of conflicts with this belief. Must be why Herschel Hobbs didn't mention it.

[PawDawg]

I happened to read this this morning and thought about our discussion...

Confession is for our healing. We are unable to accept the reality of forgiveness so God has given us the practice of confession.

God is not clutching tightly to His mercy, as if we have to pry if from His fingers. We need to confess in order to heal and be changed.

Nor is confession simply an accounting procedure: "That sin was on the debit side of God's ledger; Now I have confessed it and it got erased."

When we practice confession well, two things happen. The first is that we are liberated from guilt. The second is that we will at least be a little less likely to sin in the same way.

John Ortberg

[Blue Dawg]

Aye.

[Cool Hand Clyde]

If "church" membership is biblical, what church would Jesus attend? Baptist? Methodist? Lutheran? Catholic? Episcopal? Presbyterian?...........