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Thread: Chaos in VA

  1. #91
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    BTW, those racist who are represented by the statues and most notably Robert E Lee were not fighting to keep slavery as the Alt Left propaganda machine has been teaching our young people for the past 30+ years.
    As long as you believe that...Oh, I know, I know. States' rights and everything. But after so many encroachments, whey was the line drawn at slavery?

  2. #92
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg View Post
    As long as you believe that...Oh, I know, I know. States' rights and everything. But after so many encroachments, whey was the line drawn at slavery?
    It wasn't. Slavery was a side issue. If it had been about Slavery the Emancipation Proclamation would have been in or before 1861 not 1863. Also, the Union states were not "required" free slaves until December of 1865. Reckon why? States rights were important to the founding fathers and the very reason we set up as a republic. Did you have a democrat teacher for US history?
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  3. #93
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    And then there's the Dem's Sen. Robert Bird aka Mr. KKK wizard! CNN and the libs get zero question on him during all of this.

  4. #94
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    It wasn't. Slavery was a side issue. If it had been about Slavery the Emancipation Proclamation would have been in or before 1861 not 1863. Also, the Union states were not "required" free slaves until December of 1865. Reckon why? States rights were important to the founding fathers and the very reason we set up as a republic. Did you have a democrat teacher for US history?
    You're mixing your histories. The North didn't start the fight nor fought for the ending of slavery at first. The South's whole reason for fighting, for even being, was for the perpetuation of slavery. Wrap it in states rights all you want because it's somewhat true. Just don't forget it was for the right to continue slavery.

  5. #95
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    It wasn't. Slavery was a side issue. If it had been about Slavery the Emancipation Proclamation would have been in or before 1861 not 1863. Also, the Union states were not "required" free slaves until December of 1865. Reckon why? States rights were important to the founding fathers and the very reason we set up as a republic. Did you have a democrat teacher for US history?
    Slavery had been THE issue between North and South for decades prior to the war. It was the primary reason the war was fought because the Southern States had all their capital tied up with slaves while the North had its capital invested in factories. The South could see which way the wind was blowing and wanted to protect its capital from a federal government which was increasing wanting to abolish slavery.

    I guess you forgot why the Articles of Confederation were dissolved by the States and replaced with a new Consititution. All of the States at that time had the freedom not to join in this new goverment and they joined knowing that the Constitution did not provide for a method of seccession except by ratification of an Amendment.

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  6. #96
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Somewhere, buried in a box, I have a copy of an essay written by a brilliant historian, Constitutional lawyer, writer, and college professor, who composed the essay to explain the rationale of Confederate Nationalism. That is, what did the Confederates think of the US Constitution and why they thought they had the legal right to secede. I need to do some checking, but I seem to recall the Bill of Rights was offered to soothe those not wanting to ratify the Constitution. But, the Confederates dismissed that argument and still clung to the notion that states who freely entered the Union, had a right to freely leave it too.

    I am not saying, having read this essay, that someone opposed to the right of states to secede would change their viewpoint. But rather, it concisely spells out the arguments made by the Southern states.

  7. #97
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    The arguments made by the Southern States were a pretext. They were mad that the North wouldn't acknowledge their ownership rights over slaves. But the North didn't go to war to free the slaves.

  8. #98
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by DONW View Post
    I did not know this was separate from the other rally where the white nationalist were having their rally. The sad thing about this whole affair is that there has been little written about the woman that was killed. I would say this to anyone that thinks about going to one of these rallys as a sightseer, "Stay away, you're putting your life in danger."
    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg View Post
    All the more reason to go if you believe in America.
    I heard someone on either CNN or MSNBC last night talking like Ms. Heyer is a martyr. The commentator spoke as if Ms. Heyer went to the rally knowing injury or death was imminent and she continued to battle it out with white supremacists knowing the car was about hit her. Everything I've seen leads me believe she was, tragically, in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would like to know if the commentator was telling the truth and sincerely hope he was not sensationalizing Ms. Heyer's murder to push an agenda/narrative.

    Salty, you are right. We do need to let the neo-Nazis and KKK know their beliefs will not be tolerated. But anyone going to a rally to counter protest needs to understand the risk they are taking and stay very attentive of what is going on around them.
    Last edited by dawg1984; 08-17-2017 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Corrected sentence from "But anyone going to one counter protest needs..."

  9. #99
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    The best way to deal with groups like the KKK who want to march or hold an event is to ignore them. Yes, they have every right to hold their events. They should have to buy parade permits from the local police and follow all laws, etc... but, after that, the media and all others ignore them. Do NOT show up. Let them march along empty streets, end up at a rally gathering where they get to hear the same speakers they've heard before, blah, blah, blah...

    Of course, the same thing should apply to BLM and leftist radical groups.

    Unfortunately, the media will NOT ignore either one, they want to sensationalize such events, and put their spin on it.

  10. #100
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    The arguments made by the Southern States were a pretext. They were mad that the North wouldn't acknowledge their ownership rights over slaves. But the North didn't go to war to free the slaves.
    Over-simplification. The issues were very complex. First, hey, you're right, the North did not go to war to free the slaves. That's true.

    The South was not "mad" at the North... There was no, none, nada, zilch desire by the North to take away slaves, to end slavery where it existed. And, the issue wasn't even sectional. Slavery was legal and practiced in New Jersey and Delaware. Two "northern" states. And, slavery was legal and practiced in Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, border states, none of which joined the Confederacy. And to say the North did not acknowledge slaves as Southern property is erroneous too. Lincoln offered to settle the issue by BUYING slaves. That's an obvious acknowledgment he, and thus "the North," recognized ownership rights.

    In 1860 7 of the top 10 wealthiest states were Southern states. Louisiana was #5. Northern politicians wished to transfer much of that wealth from the South to their states via the federal guvmint with the use of tariffs. Effectively, Southerners had to sell their cotton (and other ag products) at controlled prices to appease Europe and to encourage trade, and to offset tariffs placed on European goods imported here. That meant that Southerners HAD to buy goods manufactured in the North...transfer of wealth...while at the same time getting less for their own products exported to Europe. AND!! thus encouraging the sale of cotton to northern textile mills at below market prices. Again....transfer of wealth.

    THAT is why the South wanted to secede!!!

    Yes, slavery was an issue. It was part of the big picture that Southerners saw as a necessary condition to make agriculture more profitable. (actually, sharecropping is a much, much better system for large landowners and exactly where Southern landowners went after slavery was abolished) But, slavery was NOT the motivation for secession. And, as most people know, was NOT the motivation for the North to go to war.

    It was "the economy, stupid."

  11. #101
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Over-simplification. The issues were very complex. First, hey, you're right, the North did not go to war to free the slaves. That's true.

    The South was not "mad" at the North... There was no, none, nada, zilch desire by the North to take away slaves, to end slavery where it existed. And, the issue wasn't even sectional. Slavery was legal and practiced in New Jersey and Delaware. Two "northern" states. And, slavery was legal and practiced in Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, border states, none of which joined the Confederacy. And to say the North did not acknowledge slaves as Southern property is erroneous too. Lincoln offered to settle the issue by BUYING slaves. That's an obvious acknowledgment he, and thus "the North," recognized ownership rights.

    In 1860 7 of the top 10 wealthiest states were Southern states. Louisiana was #5. Northern politicians wished to transfer much of that wealth from the South to their states via the federal guvmint with the use of tariffs. Effectively, Southerners had to sell their cotton (and other ag products) at controlled prices to appease Europe and to encourage trade, and to offset tariffs placed on European goods imported here. That meant that Southerners HAD to buy goods manufactured in the North...transfer of wealth...while at the same time getting less for their own products exported to Europe. AND!! thus encouraging the sale of cotton to northern textile mills at below market prices. Again....transfer of wealth.

    THAT is why the South wanted to secede!!!

    Yes, slavery was an issue. It was part of the big picture that Southerners saw as a necessary condition to make agriculture more profitable. (actually, sharecropping is a much, much better system for large landowners and exactly where Southern landowners went after slavery was abolished) But, slavery was NOT the motivation for secession. And, as most people know, was NOT the motivation for the North to go to war.

    It was "the economy, stupid."
    D80, the GNP of the Confederacy in 1861 made it the 4th richest country in the world. Doesn't sound like they were hurting Unfortunately, after hostilities began, the Union navy blockaded the South's ports thereby stopping 90% of its cotton exports. The Union navy also took control of the major rivers in the region. It didn't take long for the economy of this 4th richest country in the world to nosedive into ruin with massive inflation.

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  12. #102
    Super Moderator PawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond repute PawDawg's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg View Post
    D80, the GNP of the Confederacy in 1861 made it the 4th richest country in the world. Doesn't sound like they were hurting Unfortunately, after hostilities began, the Union navy blockaded the South's ports thereby stopping 90% of its cotton exports. The Union navy also took control of the major rivers in the region. It didn't take long for the economy of this 4th richest country in the world to nosedive into ruin with massive inflation.
    Forget all that. The war began because of Southern slavery.
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  13. #103
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg View Post
    D80, the GNP of the Confederacy in 1861 made it the 4th richest country in the world. Doesn't sound like they were hurting Unfortunately, after hostilities began, the Union navy blockaded the South's ports thereby stopping 90% of its cotton exports. The Union navy also took control of the major rivers in the region. It didn't take long for the economy of this 4th richest country in the world to nosedive into ruin with massive inflation.
    Exactly.

    And, no they were not hurting...yet. Like I said the North wanted to shift that wealth from the South to them. The South wanted to leave and form our own nation BEFORE the massive transfer of wealth could occur. Southerners could see what was happening, and they weren't stupid. Lincoln, as a Republican, was seen as the leader who would accelerate the transformation of the nation, so his election in 1860 marked the end of the South. Time to leave.

    And, history has proven all of this to be true, and it is still true today. How did Louisiana go from being the 5th wealthiest state(out of 33 at that time) to 49th today? Transfer of wealth. What the Yankees didn't accomplish before the War of Northern Aggression economically, they have done so with brute military and now political force. Example: customers in Michigan pay LESS for Louisiana natural gas than we who live here do. It's the wanton seizure of natural resources and a transfer of wealth.

    Many decades ago I wrote a manuscript, in novel form, of what the Confederate States of America would look like today. In my book we won our independence and grew our own country. Might be time to dust that book off, finish it, and get published.

  14. #104
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    It was all about cotton and the southerners taking their cotton and textile goods to the European markets at a much better price vs. to the north who wanted to by cotton cheap. It didn't start as a slavery issue , which all countries abused at the time and throughout history.

  15. #105
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    Re: Chaos in VA

    Quote Originally Posted by TYLERTECHSAS View Post
    It was all about cotton and the southerners taking their cotton and textile goods to the European markets at a much better price vs. to the north who wanted to by cotton cheap. It didn't start as a slavery issue , which all countries abused at the time and throughout history.
    A nice write up about cotton and the Confedracy.

    http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us...-the-civil-war

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