What is Systemic Racism?

[Guisslapp]

without being more specific, there is no way to answer these questions. the real question is "would it be unfair or unjust for bob?" and my answer is no, unless there were specific things about the criminal law, constitution, economy, etc., that were fundamentally unjust.

I am not even talking about unfairness. This is purely an empathy exercise.

[Guisslapp]

And if the concept is still too abstract to you (which I doubt - you are just resisting broadening your thinking), imagine Bob being born and living his life in Saudi Arabia, India, South Korea...but same family. Do you think you would be as well equipped to equally succeed there? Not something you have to answer, just asking you to think about it.

[johnnylightnin]

my responses in bold.

in summary, i think i'm finished on this topic. it is a dead-end street, and whether you agree or not, it is championed by people who have a vested interested in keeping people angry at each other. if you want to talk about how we can fix some specific problems, i'm on board with that.

I don't believe it is championed exclusively by people who have a vested interest in keeping people angry at each other. Sure, those are the folks we consume if we're only looking at politicians and pundits, but that's not the only people who are interacting with this...even the academics have no vested interest in keeping groups of people at odds.

You're right that the lexicon feels divisive to most on this board. Could it be that ignoring the racial component would feel divisive to the black community? If you've interacted at all with the responses to "all lives matter", you know what I'm talking about.

At the end of the day, were not entitled to have the discussion on our terms. The discussion unfolds as it will. If we refuse to engage (something I never accused you of) because we dislike the semantics or the tactics, that's on us. If we really want unity and a rising tide that lifts all boats, we're going to have to interact with the concept of Systemic Racism...whether we buy in full bore to the concepts or not.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

So where does this fit?

California NAACP Pushing To Get Rid Of National Anthem...

SACRAMENTO (CBS13) — The California NAACP is pushing to get rid of the national anthem that they’re calling racist and anti-black.
“This song is wrong; it shouldn’t have been there, we didn’t have it ’til 1931, so it won’t kill us if it goes away,” said the organization’s president Alice Huffman.
Colin Kaepernick started the NFL protests, which quickly spread to bring attention to systemic racial injustice in the country. But Huffman says Kaepernick’s message was lost when it turned into a debate about the flag.

“The message got distorted, the real intentions got overlooked, it became something that’s dividing us, and I’m looking for something to bring us back together,” she said.
Huffman adds that the protests did lead her to look at the lyrics of the “Star Spangled Banner” especially the parts of the anthem we don’t typically sing.
“It’s racist; it doesn’t represent our community, it’s anti-black,” she said.
More:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2017/...anthem-racist/

[arkansasbob]

I don't believe it is championed exclusively by people who have a vested interest in keeping people angry at each other. Sure, those are the folks we consume if we're only looking at politicians and pundits, but that's not the only people who are interacting with this...even the academics have no vested interest in keeping groups of people at odds.

You're right that the lexicon feels divisive to most on this board. Could it be that ignoring the racial component would feel divisive to the black community? If you've interacted at all with the responses to "all lives matter", you know what I'm talking about.

At the end of the day, were not entitled to have the discussion on our terms. The discussion unfolds as it will. If we refuse to engage (something I never accused you of) because we dislike the semantics or the tactics, that's on us. If we really want unity and a rising tide that lifts all boats, we're going to have to interact with the concept of Systemic Racism...whether we buy in full bore to the concepts or not.

again, if you want to engage, be specific about things that need to change. no one has to accept the "society is racist" narrative to agree that certain things are unjust.

there are specific things i can think of that are unjust and disproportionately impact people of color. i've been hoping someone would bring them up so that we can discuss something of substance. instead, you insist that we should all accept the fact that those things are racist before we can even start to discuss the specifics. this is completely insane. it is built to be that way.

[arkansasbob]

And if the concept is still too abstract to you (which I doubt - you are just resisting broadening your thinking), imagine Bob being born and living his life in Saudi Arabia, India, South Korea...but same family. Do you think you would be as well equipped to equally succeed there? Not something you have to answer, just asking you to think about it.

somehow i doubt that this is something you have really thought about. if you lived in one of those places, would you feel oppressed? would you expect them to change their society based on the fact that it made you uncomfortable? if you saw injustices in those places, would you feel the need to claim that those things are racist?

[Guisslapp]

somehow i doubt that this is something you have really thought about. if you lived in one of those places, would you feel oppressed? would you expect them to change their society based on the fact that it made you uncomfortable? if you saw injustices in those places, would you feel the need to claim that those things are racist?

Do you rush everything? This is an empathy exercise, not a point.

[arkansasbob]

Do you rush everything? This is an empathy exercise, not a point.

it seems you think i lack empathy. thanks for trying to change that if it is what you truly believe. i think you lack critical thinking, so that's what i'm trying to change.

[Guisslapp]

it seems you think i lack empathy. thanks for trying to change that if it is what you truly believe. i think you lack critical thinking, so that's what i'm trying to change.

Do you think “fairness” and “justice” are independent of culture?

[arkansasbob]

Do you think “fairness” and “justice” are independent of culture?

can you think of anything that i might find unjust in any of those places that is not objectively unjust?

[Guisslapp]

can you think of anything that i might find unjust in any of those places that is not objectively unjust?

Do you think folks in those areas largely believe that “things” are unjust or unfair?

[Guisslapp]

But my question is really do you feel like you would be equally equipped to succeed in such cultures/countries?

If the answer is “no”, why not?

[arkansasbob]

Do you think folks in those areas largely believe that “things” are unjust or unfair?

not terribly concerned with what they believe. i believe there is an objective standard for justice. you can come on out and accuse me of ethnocentrism now, since that's what you've been getting at the whole time.

[arkansasbob]

But my question is really do you feel like you would be equally equipped to succeed in such cultures/countries?

If the answer is “no”, why not?

my answer is "it doesn't matter" and "i wouldn't blame systemic racism if i were not."

[Guisslapp]

my answer is "it doesn't matter" and "i wouldn't blame systemic racism if i were not."

Ok, if not systemic racism, why were you not as well equipped to succeed?