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Thread: What is Systemic Racism?

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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Ok, if not systemic racism, why were you not as well equipped to succeed?
    it depends. is it a country with unjust laws or practices that make it hard for me? if it is just the fact that i have difficulty fitting in with the culture and customs, it is not the fault of the culture.

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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkansasbob View Post
    it depends. is it a country with unjust laws or practices that make it hard for me? if it is just the fact that i have difficulty fitting in with the culture and customs, it is not the fault of the culture.
    I am not ascribing blame, but, yeah, I suspect it could be harder for you to succeed due to the extra challenge of fitting in with culture and customs.

    Would it be easier/harder/same for you to succeed at your current work environment if you (a) had a facial tattoo, (b) carried an odor, (c) wore dreads in your hair?

  3. #408
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I am not ascribing blame, but, yeah, I suspect it could be harder for you to succeed due to the extra challenge of fitting in with culture and customs.

    Would it be easier/harder/same for you to succeed at your current work environment if you (a) had a facial tattoo, (b) carried an odor, (c) wore dreads in your hair?
    now we're finally getting to specifics. thank you. with all three of those examples, do you think it would be harder for a person with those characteristics who is black than it would be for someone with the same characteristics who is white?

  4. #409
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkansasbob View Post
    now we're finally getting to specifics. thank you. with all three of those examples, do you think it would be harder for a person with those characteristics who is black than it would be for someone with the same characteristics who is white?
    Well, I can’t answer the question for your job, but my sense is that those attributes would make it more challenging in most professional spaces in the US.

    But logically and objectively should it?

    And would you say that someone having those attributes (assuming they were permanent whether by choice or some other) has the same “opportunity” as someone that doesn’t?

  5. #410
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkansasbob View Post
    again, if you want to engage, be specific about things that need to change. no one has to accept the "society is racist" narrative to agree that certain things are unjust.
    Society is racist is not the same thing as systemic racism exists. I mentioned the lending industry and incarceration rates. I still think the desire for specifics CAN miss the bigger picture.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    Society is racist is not the same thing as systemic racism exists. I mentioned the lending industry and incarceration rates. I still think the desire for specifics CAN miss the bigger picture.
    Racism is a motive, an intent. Racism supplies animus to an action. Systemic racism is an unseen, lingering intent that does not provide animus to a SPECIFIC ACTION. The theory relies solely on otherwise unexplained outcomes to prove its existence.

    Disparate outcomes (redlining in lending, high incarceration rates) either point to racist actions or they don't. Redlining does, and is thus illegal. I don't believe high incarceration rates point to racism, at least not substantially. When outcomes point to observable racist actions, it's racism. When they don't, they're deemed systemic racism.

    The specifics are the whole point. Systemic racism can only point to specific OUTCOMES. The actions are unable to be observed, otherwise its regular old racism that we can all agree is wrong.

  7. #412
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    You seem to be distracting yourself with terminology. “Systemic racism” is a different concept than your garden variety bigotry racism. Sure there are some similarities, but the same rules don’t apply to both concepts.

  8. #413
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    You seem to be distracting yourself with terminology. “Systemic racism” is a different concept than your garden variety bigotry racism. Sure there are some similarities, but the same rules don’t apply to both concepts.
    You seem to be ignoring what I write. The terminology is largely the point.

    Saying "black people are generally less well off, hold less positions of power, and are incarcerated more often" implicates multiple possible causes, one of which may be culture. Racism is by definition a system of beliefs. "Systemic Racism" ascribes a motive to these outcomes, even if it's 200 years ago.

    Without the charge of racism, the problem becomes "inequality of outcomes".

  9. #414
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by LATechBanjo View Post
    You seem to be ignoring what I write. The terminology is largely the point.

    Saying "black people are generally less well off, hold less positions of power, and are incarcerated more often" implicates multiple possible causes, one of which may be culture. Racism is by definition a system of beliefs. "Systemic Racism" ascribes a motive to these outcomes, even if it's 200 years ago.

    Without the charge of racism, the problem becomes "inequality of outcomes".
    Your bolded part is where you are wrong.

  10. #415
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Your bolded part is where you are wrong.
    Correct me, then.

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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by LATechBanjo View Post
    Correct me, then.
    Your too late to the party to define systemic racism. “Motive” is not necessarily part of the equation. Sure, there could be a such thing as “motivated systemic racism”, but it is not a requirement that systemic racism involve motive.

  12. #417
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Your too late to the party to define systemic racism. “Motive” is not necessarily part of the equation. Sure, there could be a such thing as “motivated systemic racism”, but it is not a requirement that systemic racism involve motive.
    I'll use the article cited in the first page to define it:
    SYSTEMIC RACISM INCLUDES THE COMPLEX ARRAY OF AnTIBLACK PRACTICES, THE UNJUSTLY GAINED POLITICAL-ECONOMIC POWER OF WHITES, THE CONTINUING ECONOMIC AND OTHER RESOURCE INEQUALITIES ALONG RACIAL LINES, AND THE WHITE RACIST IDEOLOGIES AND ATTITUDES CREATED TO MAINTAIN AND RATIONALIZE WHITE PRIVILEGE AND POWER.


    "...the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power." How do you maintain and rationalize white power (intentionally or not) without a belief system?

    What I suppose you must be getting at is that systemic racism preys on unintentional, implicit bias ingrained through generations of actual racist policy. Go take some of the tests - I've done quite a few, even though I'm not too well-read on anything. https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

    Does being implicitly/unintentionally biased against blacks make you any more or less racist than someone who joins the KKK? Either way, it's an animus to marginalize another race, is it not?

    Point being: Without a racist belief system at some point in history underlying it, the theory of Systemic Racism could just as easily have been conjured up by Marx and applied to any desired division of the proletariat.

  13. #418
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Yeah, I have done the implicit bias tests on that site. Oddly, I favor Jews over other religions despite having minimal exposure to Jewish people.

  14. #419
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    But, yes, I do think implicit bias plays into it. I think that is what the resume studies show.

    But I think there are structural aspects as well, relics of our past, that are ingrained in our public and private institutions that further disempower black points of view and further white power. “Institutional racism” which I suppose is a subset of systemic racism.

  15. #420
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    Re: What is Systemic Racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    But, yes, I do think implicit bias plays into it. I think that is what the resume studies show.

    But I think there are structural aspects as well, relics of our past, that are ingrained in our public and private institutions that further disempower black points of view and further white power. “Institutional racism” which I suppose is a subset of systemic racism.
    They are synonyms as I understand it.

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