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Thread: real injustice

  1. #31
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    Re: real injustice

    Cassia Spohn’s analysis of 40 states’ sentencing processes finds that, though crime seriousness and prior record are key determinants at sentencing, the non-legal factors of race and ethnicity also influence sentencing decisions. She notes that “black and Hispanic offenders—particularly those who are young, male, and unemployed—are more likely than their white counterparts to be sentenced to prison than similarly situated white offenders. Other categories of racial minorities—those convicted of drug offenses, those who victimize whites, those who accumulate more serious prior criminal records, or those who refuse to plead guilty or are unable to secure pretrial release—also may be singled out for more punitive treatment.”33)

  2. #32
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by arkansasbob View Post
    thanks. i did check out the information from that case, which is fascinating and publicly available. i haven't gone very far into it, but here is some interesting information from the first case file listed, a statistical study on stops in nyc in 2013-2015:
    In 2013, Blacks were frisked in 58.9 percent of the stops compared to 55.6 percent of the stops of Non-Hispanic others (Whites, Asians, Native Americans). Also in 2013, Blacks were subjected to force more frequently, with 14.5 percent of the stops involving force compared to 12.6 percent of the stops for Non-Hispanic Others. In 2014 and 2015, the differences are no longer significant when Blacks are compared to Non-Hispanics stopped in similar circumstances.
    it claims that this small difference is statistically significant, and i'll trust that their statistical analysis is adequate. but this is before controlling for any additional factors that may figure in to the reason for frisking. of course, they also note that the differences disappeared in 2014 and 2015...

    at any rate, it is significant to note that the floyd case was a response to perceived non-compliance with daniels v. city of new york, in which the nypd was found to be violating the 4th amendment by searching without reasonable suspicion.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-decision.html

    Link to the judge’s findings in the the Floyd case. Page 9 gives some stats, but as pointed out at an earlier paragraph in the executive summary - while some can quibble about the actual stats (and that is also part to subjective classification of the officers over their basis), it is the totality of the evidence that should be considered.

  3. #33
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-decision.html

    Link to the judge’s findings in the the Floyd case. Page 9 gives some stats, but as pointed out at an earlier paragraph in the executive summary - while some can quibble about the actual stats (and that is also part to subjective classification of the officers over their basis), it is the totality of the evidence that should be considered.
    i am not trying to argue that the city of new york was not in violation of the constitution. i was looking for evidence that racial makeup of a neighborhood was a factor in stops. i do not find a "second supplemental report" or any other information pertaining to this in the case files on the ccr website.

    if anything, floyd vs. new york supports the point i have been trying to make (albeit poorly) regarding discrepancies in drug arrest rates -- police tactics often result in drug possession arrests when there was suspicion of other crimes: if police are stopping people on the street and searching them without probable cause in areas where crimes are being committed, and the people on the streets of those areas have a higher percentage of blacks than the general population, then more blacks are going to be searched. if more blacks are searched, more blacks will be found with drugs. it takes a lot of work to gather sufficient evidence to arrest someone for trespassing or breaking and entering if they are no longer on the premises, or for robbery or burglary if they are not currently in possession of stolen goods. but it's easy to arrest someone for drug possession. so an officer will settle for possession as an excuse to get a suspected criminal off the street.

    the point being that drug arrests have nothing in the world to do with drug use. officers don't typically waste their time stopping someone if drug possession for personal use is the only suspected offense.

    one does not have to make a claim of racism to show that these policies and practices are unconstitutional. one does not have to make a claim of racism to argue that imprisoning people for drug possession does little in the long run to reduce crime.

  4. #34
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by DONW View Post
    Fatherless homes with no direction, mothers having babies that are on drugs, easy access to drugs, rappers degrading women, welfare, disruptive kids in the classroom. There's nothing that can be done about the fatherless homes, you can't force morals on people that don't want to have them. The biggest problem with our education system is that there are too many kids that are disruptive in the classroom, and there's nothing that the teacher can do about it. The disruptive kids should be expelled from the school. They don't need an education to become a drug addict, so why ruin the classroom for a few that will never matter.

    Many of these kids are born to mothers that were on drugs when they were born. Welfare kids bring more welfare kids, so, cut out the welfare. There are women that have multiple kids with multiple fathers. The women will stop getting pregnant if they can't get welfare. Make the fathers of these kids pay for them.

    Get rid of the drugs. Drugs cause poverty and bad living conditions for kids. Bad habits keep getting repeated. Build the wall to keep the drugs and criminals out of our country.
    regarding the statement in bold, one thing you can do to help reduce the number of fatherless homes is to stop sending fathers to prison for drug possession. another, as you point out, may be to eliminate or seriously reform welfare.

    as for your last paragraph, i agree that getting rid of the drugs would be ideal, but criminalizing possession is not an effective means, and i doubt a wall would have much impact, either.

  5. #35
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-decision.html

    Link to the judge’s findings in the the Floyd case. Page 9 gives some stats, but as pointed out at an earlier paragraph in the executive summary - while some can quibble about the actual stats (and that is also part to subjective classification of the officers over their basis), it is the totality of the evidence that should be considered.
    also worth noting is that the assumption is made here that "the vast majority of those searched were innocent". this is the right assumption under the law, but it is not an assumption that is supported by any evidence.

  6. #36
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    Re: real injustice

    Cops are more suspicious of black people and it is not unique to New York or police. They are perceived as more dangerous and therefore more likely to be stopped, arrested, and treated as such within the criminal justice system. Drug possession laws just make a lot more of them get caught up in the system even though they do not use drugs at a higher rate than white people.

  7. #37
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Cops are more suspicious of black people and it is not unique to New York or police. They are perceived as more dangerous and therefore more likely to be stopped, arrested, and treated as such within the criminal justice system.
    Not true. You are judging again. Or are you empathizing with the police?

  8. #38
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    Not true. You are judging again. Or are you empathizing with the police?
    Yes it is.

  9. #39
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by JuBru View Post
    Yes it is.
    You imply this with your racist assumption...

    Two cops on patrol (does not matter what color the cops are) see two white guys breaking into a store. They keep driving and look for black guys who may be doing something illegal. Their "suspicions" prevent them from going after whites.

    As you know, cops of all colors know what to look for. They profile based on the entire situation not on simple emotion. The people who believe "cops are racist" are the same people who don't believe we should profile terrorist.

  10. #40
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    You imply this with your racist assumption...

    Two cops on patrol (does not matter what color the cops are) see two white guys breaking into a store. They keep driving and look for black guys who may be doing something illegal. Their "suspicions" prevent them from going after whites.

    As you know, cops of all colors know what to look for. They profile based on the entire situation not on simple emotion. The people who believe "cops are racist" are the same people who don't believe we should profile terrorist.
    You know that two innocent black men walking on the road are treated with higher suspicion than two white men.

    Cops are and have been trained on this, but implicit bias is a real thing - and it is experienced by cops, judges, juries, and all other people interfacing with defendants throughout the criminal justice system.

  11. #41
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    You know that two innocent black men walking on the road are treated with higher suspicion than two white men.

    Cops are and have been trained on this, but implicit bias is a real thing - and it is experienced by cops, judges, juries, and all other people interfacing with defendants throughout the criminal justice system.
    Your opinion based on bias studies that keep going until they get the desired results. These are the people who had Hillary winning in a land slide.

  12. #42
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    You know that two innocent black men walking on the road are treated with higher suspicion than two white men.

    Cops are and have been trained on this, but implicit bias is a real thing - and it is experienced by cops, judges, juries, and all other people interfacing with defendants throughout the criminal justice system.
    Now this could be true with older generations; but not really per the younger generations because of the lack of ingrained past life experiences.

    But you would have to ask why and is it deserved per the two white's past life experiences. They are just as valid as the black's walking down the street correct?
    The liberal left and polling folks seem conveniently to forget that both races are affected by their past generational and life experiences; both good and bad.


    It is totally racist to discount the two white guys racially fixed impressions and past life experiences that might have been negative. Their reactions and thoughts, just like the blacks, should carry equal weight.

    And if two whites were walking in a black neighborhood what do you think the two blacks are or would be thinking? You can bet it's not always good at all! Again both should carry equal weight. And both need work to change that mentality. Not just the whites.

  13. #43
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    Re: real injustice

    I agree that MOST people, not just cops, would be concerned seeing some young black dudes approaching them vs. some young white dudes under the exact same circumstances. And by exact, I mean dressed the same, behaving the same, etc... Now, a couple of young black men wearing lettermen jackets and acting as non-criminals generally behave would not alarm most people. Dress and act like a gangbanger and you're gonna draw attention, the kind you might not like. And, when cops are involved, it can quickly escalate.

    Some might think it's only whites who over-react to the appearance of some black dudes. Nope! Ask most law-abiding blacks (which is most blacks) and they'll tell you they're leery of young black dudes dressed/acting certain ways.

  14. #44
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    Re: real injustice

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    You imply this with your racist assumption...

    Two cops on patrol (does not matter what color the cops are) see two white guys breaking into a store. They keep driving and look for black guys who may be doing something illegal. Their "suspicions" prevent them from going after whites.

    As you know, cops of all colors know what to look for. They profile based on the entire situation not on simple emotion. The people who believe "cops are racist" are the same people who don't believe we should profile terrorist.
    I imply nothing. I know. I've seen. I've witnessed. I've been through it. And unlike what you're trying to do, I don't summarily dismiss everything not sharing an uninformed viewpoint.

    The cops wouldn't drive by if that was happening. But their initial reaction and contact would be different with the two white guys than with the two black guys.

    Profiling works only if you have an accurate profile. Also, most people don't work off it even if they have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    Your opinion based on bias studies that keep going until they get the desired results. These are the people who had Hillary winning in a land slide.
    No. Just, no.

  15. #45
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    Re: real injustice

    So you agree with the BLM movement that cops are bias and focus on arresting or even killing blacks?

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