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Thread: Year end summation

  1. #46
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    Re: Year end summation

    But JMar wasn't the main problem this year. Sure, I certainly hope he improves, because there's a lot of room for that. JMar wasn't the one who coached his team to three avoidable losses this year.

  2. #47
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Wondering out loud....

    what if Holtz had stuck with Higgns as the starter in 2014? Higgins, then a sophomore, much like Smith this year. Instead of Sokol, we would have had Higgins as the starter. What would '14 have looked like? Based on what we know now (since hindsight is 20-20), I'm guessing Higgins would have done okay....maybe even fairly good. The season might have ended pretty much like it did, 9-4 with a bowl win. Maybe. Then, in 2015, Higgins now a veteran QB, in his junior year, probably would have done as well as Driskel, and again, 9 wins and a bowl title. Of course, we know the reality of 2016 with Higgins as a senior. Hard to say Higgins would have been even better in '16 had he had the benefit of two more years of game experience. He was pretty damn good as it was!

    My point? Well, I'm thinking that Smith might be right on track in his development, just that he was thrown to the wolves and had to endure some growth pains in plain view of everyone, while Higgins, was allowed to continue to blossom behind the scenes, and then all we saw was the polished product in '16.

    Caveats: Higgins was a better runner than what Smith has shown. Go back and watch some of the highlights from last year. When Higgins took off he did so with authority! He got some serious yardage, often in critical times, picking up first downs. And Higgins was light years ahead everywhere else, throwing, decision-making....but again, a senior vs. a sophomore.

    But....Higgins was beyond woeful in 2013 as a freshman. Even given he was a freshman, he looked so clueless out there, a bungler/stumbler/game-choker that I never imagined we would ever see him take a snap again in a Tech uniform. But to his credit, and to the credit of the coaches (Tim Rattay), between 2013 and 2016 that ugly caterpillar emerged as a dynamic butterfly! (can butterflies be "dynamic?")

    Sorry...it's officially the off-season for us, so I'm off on tangents!
    I think this is a good question to ask, but from everything I've heard Ryan was definitely not ready in 2014. We would not have won 9 games with Ryan on the field. He was closer to being ready in 2015 but still didn't look good in the little he played.

    I think a better question is what would have happened this season if J'Mar had been the starter from the South Carolina State game in 2016 moving forward. Ryan struggled early in 2016 to a point where he struggled against SCSU and then Skip spent the entire MTSU game coaching/yelling at him on the sidelines. It wasn't until week 5 against UTEP where Ryan made some progress in the second half and then got better as the season progressed.

    But what would have happened in 2017 if J'Mar would have had the benefit of his on-the-field learning by having Trent and Carlos. I think the season likely plays out in a similar fashion with one exception. We beat MTSU but then lose to WKU at home in week 6. And we may have not blown people out the way we handled UMass or FIU or North Texas but we still easily win those games with J'Mar improving week after week. He then enters 2017 with that experience.

    We were hearing over the summer of 2016 that there was a huge gap between Ryan and Price/J'Mar. After the Arkansas and SCSU games it was clear that wasn't the case. In those instances, where you have to develop a QB, the younger player is the better option. Our student body was correct from the first quarter on at the SCSU game - "We want J'Mar".

    It would not have hurt us in 2016 and look where it left us in 2017.

  3. #48
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    I think this is a good question to ask, but from everything I've heard Ryan was definitely not ready in 2014. We would not have won 9 games with Ryan on the field. He was closer to being ready in 2015 but still didn't look good in the little he played.

    I think a better question is what would have happened this season if J'Mar had been the starter from the South Carolina State game in 2016 moving forward. Ryan struggled early in 2016 to a point where he struggled against SCSU and then Skip spent the entire MTSU game coaching/yelling at him on the sidelines. It wasn't until week 5 against UTEP where Ryan made some progress in the second half and then got better as the season progressed.

    But what would have happened in 2017 if J'Mar would have had the benefit of his on-the-field learning by having Trent and Carlos. I think the season likely plays out in a similar fashion with one exception. We beat MTSU but then lose to WKU at home in week 6. And we may have not blown people out the way we handled UMass or FIU or North Texas but we still easily win those games with J'Mar improving week after week. He then enters 2017 with that experience.

    We were hearing over the summer of 2016 that there was a huge gap between Ryan and Price/J'Mar. After the Arkansas and SCSU games it was clear that wasn't the case. In those instances, where you have to develop a QB, the younger player is the better option. Our student body was correct from the first quarter on at the SCSU game - "We want J'Mar".

    It would not have hurt us in 2016 and look where it left us in 2017.
    This is an interesting thought. I'll have to chew on it.

  4. #49
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    Re: Year end summation

    The SCSU game was Higgins' "opener" since he had to sit out the Ark game. Yes, it is true, I was among those shouting for Smith as Higgins struggled, and I was still remembering him from 2013. But, whatever else is true, or might have been true, once Higgins settled in he enjoyed a great season. What were his stats last year? Yeah, uh huh, that's what I thought.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdr-ALaOio

  5. #50
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    I think this is a good question to ask, but from everything I've heard Ryan was definitely not ready in 2014. We would not have won 9 games with Ryan on the field. He was closer to being ready in 2015 but still didn't look good in the little he played.

    I think a better question is what would have happened this season if J'Mar had been the starter from the South Carolina State game in 2016 moving forward. Ryan struggled early in 2016 to a point where he struggled against SCSU and then Skip spent the entire MTSU game coaching/yelling at him on the sidelines. It wasn't until week 5 against UTEP where Ryan made some progress in the second half and then got better as the season progressed.

    But what would have happened in 2017 if J'Mar would have had the benefit of his on-the-field learning by having Trent and Carlos. I think the season likely plays out in a similar fashion with one exception. We beat MTSU but then lose to WKU at home in week 6. And we may have not blown people out the way we handled UMass or FIU or North Texas but we still easily win those games with J'Mar improving week after week. He then enters 2017 with that experience.

    We were hearing over the summer of 2016 that there was a huge gap between Ryan and Price/J'Mar. After the Arkansas and SCSU games it was clear that wasn't the case. In those instances, where you have to develop a QB, the younger player is the better option. Our student body was correct from the first quarter on at the SCSU game - "We want J'Mar".

    It would not have hurt us in 2016 and look where it left us in 2017.
    Man, that is speculation to the highest degree. Probably mistaken, as well. Fans only see a percentage of how a player performs. Would not the same hold true had the coaches stuck with Higgins and not recruited Sokol and Driskel?

  6. #51
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    Re: Year end summation

    That's okay, this whole line of thought is pure speculation. I'm interested in every perspective.

  7. #52
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    Re: Year end summation

    It seems to minimize Higgins' contributions (and they were certainly not minimal) is the thing that bothered me. He had a great year and his career at Tech showed his devotion to his now alma mater.

  8. #53
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    Re: Year end summation

    What bothers me about JMar is that there hasn’t been much evidence of progression over the course of the season.

    Even at the bowl game he still missed some throws. He still ran the ball with the ball unprotected (fumble waiting to happen) 2nd play of the game I believe.

    It wasn’t until he was thrown out of bounds on our second series that he got some fire and started playing with aggression.

    What I don’t know is this a coaching thing or a player this. Is this peak JMar or can he get better next year?

    What I hate is this running the ball on the delay/read option. It looks awkward every single time he hands the ball off. Please just stop.

  9. #54
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    The SCSU game was Higgins' "opener" since he had to sit out the Ark game. Yes, it is true, I was among those shouting for Smith as Higgins struggled, and I was still remembering him from 2013. But, whatever else is true, or might have been true, once Higgins settled in he enjoyed a great season. What were his stats last year? Yeah, uh huh, that's what I thought.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdr-ALaOio
    Correct. He had the advantage of having Trent and Carlos as targets as he grew into the position throughout the season.

  10. #55
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by stodgdog View Post
    Man, that is speculation to the highest degree. Probably mistaken, as well. Fans only see a percentage of how a player performs. Would not the same hold true had the coaches stuck with Higgins and not recruited Sokol and Driskel?
    So how many more games would we have lost with J'Mar as the starter in 2016 with Trent and Carlos? I've already stated I think we would have lost to WKU in week 6 but offset that with a win over MTSU.

    Make no mistake, I don't want to minimize Ryan's contribution to the program, but I also don't want to inflate those contributions either. He never beat a P5 opponent. He didn't win a conference championship. He put up great stats, but he also struggled for half of the season. And he cost himself a game after an off-the-field incident.

    I understand loyalty and rewarding hard work, but how many upper echelon P5 programs would have started the senior over the freshman going into conference play given what we saw in non-conference play in 2016. The answer is none.

  11. #56
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    Correct. He had the advantage of having Trent and Carlos as targets as he grew into the position throughout the season.
    I really, really like(d) Trent and Carlos as WRs. Quite the dynamic duo, granted! But, Teddy Veal is in their class, and we had others who could be counted on, IF we had a consistent QB.

    I'm not one who is easily swayed. I was a HUGE, I mean HUGE Higgins' detractor. I didn't even want him on the roster after 2013. When he was named the starting QB last summer, I was like....say what!? Holtz has lost his mind! Then I laughed at him when he messed up and had to miss the Ark game. His first game, SCSU, was lackluster, but by the very next week at Texas Tech he held his own vs. Mahomes, who I deemed the best QB in CFB last year. (Mahomes gets his first NFL start tomorrow). Point is, Higgins earned my respect by what he did on the field. And, also, whatever else anyone might have to say, pro or con, Higgins never quit Tech!

    Higgins was terrific last year. I think, statistically, he had one of the best seasons ever for a Tech QB. That is rarified air! AVERAGE Tech QBs over the decades are superior to most other CFB QBs. I was wrong about Higgins and freely admit it now.

    So yeah, one can say Higgins had the advantage of throwing to Trent and Carlos. But, I think it was mutually beneficial. They are both in the NFL, thanks in part, to having a terrific QB last year.

  12. #57
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    I really, really like(d) Trent and Carlos as WRs. Quite the dynamic duo, granted! But, Teddy Veal is in their class, and we had others who could be counted on, IF we had a consistent QB.

    I'm not one who is easily swayed. I was a HUGE, I mean HUGE Higgins' detractor. I didn't even want him on the roster after 2013. When he was named the starting QB last summer, I was like....say what!? Holtz has lost his mind! Then I laughed at him when he messed up and had to miss the Ark game. His first game, SCSU, was lackluster, but by the very next week at Texas Tech he held his own vs. Mahomes, who I deemed the best QB in CFB last year. (Mahomes gets his first NFL start tomorrow). Point is, Higgins earned my respect by what he did on the field. And, also, whatever else anyone might have to say, pro or con, Higgins never quit Tech!

    Higgins was terrific last year. I think, statistically, he had one of the best seasons ever for a Tech QB. That is rarified air! AVERAGE Tech QBs over the decades are superior to most other CFB QBs. I was wrong about Higgins and freely admit it now.

    So yeah, one can say Higgins had the advantage of throwing to Trent and Carlos. But, I think it was mutually beneficial. They are both in the NFL, thanks in part, to having a terrific QB last year.
    I agree with you. See my post above. But the question is: What would it have cost us in 2016 if J'Mar was the starter if, like Higgins, he had Trent and Carlos to throw to? And what did it cost us in 2017 with J"Mar having 12 fewer career starts?

  13. #58
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    Re: Year end summation

    How much rope should Smith be given? He now has 14 career starts at Tech...during which he is 7-7. Three of those losses are to SEC teams. I am seeing some pro and con re: Higgins, who had 12 starts as a senior, 9-3. We won't bother with the mess of his freshman year. There is consensus that Higgins developed and grew into the position and was good by the end of the season. Sorry, but that cannot be said of Smith.

    It is fair to ask, how good would Higgins have been last year, if he had the benefit of being a multi-year starter? Looks like Smith is being afforded the opportunity denied Higgins. Personally, I want to see a clean slate re: the starting QB position. I know he won't do it, but I hope Holtz makes it clear to Smith, and to everyone, Tech does NOT have a #1 QB for 2018 yet. That position has to be earned.

  14. #59
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    Re: Year end summation

    Quote Originally Posted by The Historian View Post
    I agree with you. See my post above. But the question is: What would it have cost us in 2016 if J'Mar was the starter if, like Higgins, he had Trent and Carlos to throw to? And what did it cost us in 2017 with J"Mar having 12 fewer career starts?
    I'm not seeing the same development in Smith that was so prominent in Higgins. Disregarding 2013, Smith now has more career starts than Higgins did. Higgins is light years ahead of Smith. What are we supposed to expect to happen as Smith accumulates additional starts? Will he suddenly develop into a great QB? If so, how many career starts should we allow before this amazing transformation happens? 20? 25? What is the magic number? For Higgins, again disregarding the mess of '13, that magic number was TWO! After the Texas Tech game we all knew we had our QB.

  15. #60
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    Re: Year end summation

    IMO.....Smith needs to quit baseball and work with his receivers in the off-season.. That would help him and the receivers!!!!!

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