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Thread: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

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    14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    I will never understand on what planet a Handfull of posters believe we paly "not to lose" . Her are stats--2014 we were #14 offense in nation --average win was 14 points 2015 #18 offense in nation -average win 11 points 2016 #2 offense in nation and average win 11 points
    3 year average of top 10 in nation !!

    Last year was #48 offense and I do not call it and excuse-- I call it explaination-- 70 players missed games / practice with injuries - just never got in synch til the Bowl game , which had most of team healthy.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    As a fellow Sunshine Pumper I will take a stab at an explanation for you. It is not the offensive power they refer to. It is the aggressiveness of play calls. Will he call a trick play? Will he kick a field goal or go for it on 4th and 1? Will he punt or go for it on 4th and 1? Will he try to score a touch down when ahead or will he settle for the field goal? Holtz tends to lean toward the conservative answer to these calls which labels him as "playing not to lose" rather than "gambling" or "playing to win".

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by MiloBumP View Post
    As a fellow Sunshine Pumper I will take a stab at an explanation for you. It is not the offensive power they refer to. It is the aggressiveness of play calls. Will he call a trick play? Will he kick a field goal or go for it on 4th and 1? Will he punt or go for it on 4th and 1? Will he try to score a touch down when ahead or will he settle for the field goal? Holtz tends to lean toward the conservative answer to these calls which labels him as "playing not to lose" rather than "gambling" or "playing to win".
    In addtion, you can feel the style shift once we go up by about 10 points or so. Unfortunately, the other team usually doesn't just give up like I guess he hopes.

    Leaving timeouts on the field at half time, or calling timeouts at odd times to give our opponent a chance to score.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Dawg View Post
    In addtion, you can feel the style shift once we go up by about 10 points or so. Unfortunately, the other team usually doesn't just give up like I guess he hopes.

    Leaving timeouts on the field at half time, or calling timeouts at odd times to give our opponent a chance to score.
    What if we get up by four touchdowns? At some point it's just embarrassing the other team. But still when Rice was down sixty something points with less that two minutes to play a few years ago they went for an onside kick. Totally uncalled for and a waste of time. We recovered and probably could have, maybe should have, scored, but took a knee.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by Houston Techsan View Post
    What if we get up by four touchdowns? At some point it's just embarrassing the other team. But still when Rice was down sixty something points with less that two minutes to play a few years ago they went for an onside kick. Totally uncalled for and a waste of time. We recovered and probably could have, maybe should have, scored, but took a knee.
    It's their job to stop us. This is college football, not kindergarten.

    That being said, if the game is in hand and you're up 28, put in the 3rd string and get them experience. Just don't throw 3 incomplete screens in a row.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    ahem ... "fallacy"

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogsince65 View Post

    Last year was #48 offense and I do not call it and excuse-- I call it explaination-- 70 players missed games / practice with injuries - just never got in synch til the Bowl game , which had most of team healthy.
    If you keep up with this kind of stat.....what are you? Yep, if we could play teams when we are healthy and the opposing team didn't have any offensive coaching staff, we could kick butt.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by olddog75 View Post
    If you keep up with this kind of stat.....what are you? Yep, if we could play teams when we are healthy and the opposing team didn't have any offensive coaching staff, we could kick butt.
    The 70 number is Holtz's go-to excuse for why he kicks a FG to go up 4 instead of a TD to go up 8.

    It increases by leaps and bounds depending on how badly we collapsed that week.

    Right up there with the 32 seniors excuse or whatever it was.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ967 View Post
    ahem ... "fallacy"
    yep-- not going to blame spellcheck -- just lazy --

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Most judgement comes from hindsight.

    If he goes for it on 4th and doesnt get it- he's an idiot and should have kicked a FG. If he does the same play and he does make it- he's fine.

    And I find that judgement particularly stupid.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Dooley went for two vs. Top 25 ranked Hawaii in OT. We didn't get it and lost.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Dooley went for two vs. Top 25 ranked Hawaii in OT. We didn't get it and lost.
    I was happy he did, we were gassed. I never second guessed the decision. Conventional wisdom is play for overtime at home. I was at the game .

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Dooley went for two vs. Top 25 ranked Hawaii in OT. We didn't get it and lost.
    That was the best option and he was not afraid to try and win the game, I was proud he went for it.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by BhadDawg View Post
    That was the best option and he was not afraid to try and win the game, I was proud he went for it.
    His reasoning was that he didn't think we could continue to score every time and we couldn't stop them. It was the right decision. Of course Hawaii went on to get donkey stomped by Georgia in the Sugar Bowl. Their play against us (I think we went 4-8 that year) convinced me that would happen.

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    Re: 14-18-2 The Holtz "play not to lose" FALICY

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogsince65 View Post
    I will never understand on what planet a Handfull of posters believe we paly "not to lose" . Her are stats--2014 we were #14 offense in nation --average win was 14 points 2015 #18 offense in nation -average win 11 points 2016 #2 offense in nation and average win 11 points
    3 year average of top 10 in nation !!

    Last year was #48 offense and I do not call it and excuse-- I call it explaination-- 70 players missed games / practice with injuries - just never got in synch til the Bowl game , which had most of team healthy.
    We've gone over this a half dozen times in the past year. But here goes one more time... Also, I think you're defending some things even our coaching staff believes we can improve upon.

    Two things have happened: 1) At key moments in certain big games we've gone into a shell - afraid not to lose.

    It started at the end of the first half of the CUSA championship game against Marshall and has continued since that game. That attitude has often permeated the team and coaching staff. In certain games you could see it on the field and on the sidelines. Nobody wants to make a mistake. There are examples out there everywhere. It even happened in a game we won. We were about to blow a double digit lead to Illinois in a bowl game when Kenneth Dixon made a spectacular play to force a turnover and save the game.

    2) Decision making that's directly cost us games, most of which the coaching staff would love to have back.

    The timeout at the end of the first half against North Texas and then following it up with a soft zone which gave North Texas a field goal on the last play of the first half. Playing drop 8 with 4 minutes to go against USM. The use of a "hands team" against USM on the onsides kick rather than a "recovery team" which is what most college and NFL teams now employ.

    Playing drop 8 with 51 seconds to go against South Carolina when all they needed was a field goal to win the game. Playing it safe with 3 consecutive runs up the middle against South Carolina at the end of the game when a first down would have set up the field goal for Tech on the last play of the game (a more creative running play on 2nd or 3rd down might have gotten the 1st. We didn't have to throw the football. South Carolina's defense was gassed).

    Accepting the 15 yard penalty in overtime against Kansas State and giving them 3rd down again and then playing a soft zone on the next play, which essentially would have given them the penalty yardage back on any pass play underneath (they didn't need it as they actually went through the zone and scored on the play).

    Most of that is just from this past season.

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