“Conservative” nationalism subverts individual liberty

[detltu]

Yeah, the article is way off. Nationalism (at least in terms of conservatives) is not going to lead to socialism. They are directly opposed (again at least in the way it is being used now). This is basically scare mongering. I will say I am surprised by how much the term has been embraced in spite of it's historical connotation.

The fact that the right has abandoned fiscal conservatism is an actual issue that deserves attention. The reality is I'm not sure they ever really embraced it anyway. Unfortunately I believe it is an issue that requires a bipartisan commitment as well as popular support or it will fail. This issue can be tied into Trumps election and support as well.

[johnnylightnin]

Does that sound like me, like Tyler, like Pawdawg, like DONW, like any of the true American Patriots on this forum?

Controls on the economy aside, no. That's why I'm posting what I'm posting. You're assuming that all the nationalists are using your terms and definitions. I think you're wrong. Y'all talk about redefining things all the time and some on the right are trying to redefine nationalism. What I'm saying is that a large chunk (maybe larger in influence than numbers) are nationalists and they aren't defining it the way you do.

[johnnylightnin]

Yeah, the article is way off. Nationalism (at least in terms of conservatives) is not going to lead to socialism.

Collectivism then?

[johnnylightnin]

There's not one conservative on that seminar that you posted that I have ever heard of, and my TV is on FNC just about all day long.

You've never heard of Tucker Carlson?

Which left wing loon are you pulling for to run against Trump?

None. Not that it would matter. I feel pretty confident that Trump will cruise to re-election. The only thing that might derail him is the moronic tweeting he can't keep himself from. I'm pulling for a return on the right to actual conservatism that trusts the market and defends individual liberty. There are troubling influences on the right since the rise of Trump. I don't believe he has any idealogical convictions, but those who have prominent influence on him are nationalistic populists. Trump is just the vehicle.

The left is even more confused and disorganized than the right. They have no understanding of how Trump got the White House. I get it. I know plenty of people who held their nose and voted for him. They've enjoyed him zinging the left. I get that too. I just hope they haven't sold off their idealogical convictions for a W that will land us in the same place that the left would land us.

[detltu]

You've never heard of Tucker Carlson?



None. Not that it would matter. I feel pretty confident that Trump will cruise to re-election. The only thing that might derail him is the moronic tweeting he can't keep himself from. I'm pulling for a return on the right to actual conservatism that trusts the market and defends individual liberty. There are troubling influences on the right since the rise of Trump. I don't believe he has any idealogical convictions, but those who have prominent influence on him are nationalistic populists. Trump is just the vehicle.

The left is even more confused and disorganized than the right. They have no understanding of how Trump got the White House. I get it. I know plenty of people who held their nose and voted for him. They've enjoyed him zinging the left. I get that too. I just hope they haven't sold off their idealogical convictions for a W that will land us in the same place that the left would land us.

More than likely we are rocking the vending machine back and forth. The left will go further left (they are) and the right will respond with going further right (they have) and this will continue until the machine falls over. If one side decides to stop and try to hold it up they are going to have to withstand the other side trying to push it on top of them for a while. Unfortunately both sides think they have been the ones holding the machine up all these years and they are tired of having to fix the other sides mistakes so rock on. The question now is who is going to get the worst of it when the machine falls.

[johnnylightnin]

The question now is who is going to get the worst of it when the machine falls.

My question is why have so many on the right opted toward rightward authoritarianism. That's where nationalism has always led in the past. By definition, it must.

[detltu]

My question is why have so many on the right opted toward rightward authoritarianism. A )That's where nationalism has always led in the past. B) By definition, it must.

I agree with part A, but disagree with part B and I think that is why it is being accepted and even embraced.

[Guisslapp]

When supposed “small government” folks embrace authoritarian leaders, there really isn’t much stopping us from serious human tragedy. Hell, dawg80 already thinks it is funny to point automatic machine guns towards Mexico. Others are happy to single out Muslims. Some, like dawg80, would like to wipe them all out. But apparently all is good as long as it isn’t Jews that are the target.

For those that have not been to the Holocaust museum in DC, you need to go. When you walk through the history made alive exhibit, I think it is incredibly important to ask yourself how the German people could have allowed this to happen - they tolerated a lot of discriminatory policy and rhetoric before it got to the level of concentration camps and gas chambers. In the context of human history, this a modern Western culture where this occurred. Is it really too hard to believe that it could happen here? My words will never do the museum justice, people need to see it themselves and have their own introspection.

[dawg80]

Controls on the economy aside, no. That's why I'm posting what I'm posting. You're assuming that all the nationalists are using your terms and definitions. I think you're wrong. Y'all talk about redefining things all the time and some on the right are trying to redefine nationalism. What I'm saying is that a large chunk (maybe larger in influence than numbers) are nationalists and they aren't defining it the way you do.

I think I know what you are leaning towards, and I reject that completely. Not only do I reject it in principle, but reject the notion "Trumpism" is taking us there. You libs/never-Trumpers still don't get it! You cannot fathom how he defeated the Klinton Machine, squashed it really in terms of counties carried across the nation, and you continue to project your own biases, prejudices, and misconceptions onto him and his supporters. I spelled it out for you in a post, and you either do not understand what it means (doubtful) or choose to ignore the truth just so you can continue to attack Trump due to TDS.

As DONW posted, I am NOT getting off this train, this powerful locomotive that is carrying the hopes of real Americans. This nation has faced trying times before, and prevailed. And I am confident we will again.

As for these mystical, unknown folks, boogie men, who are trying to redefine "nationalism" as you contend, let them. They'll just end up like all the other cockroaches Trump has stomped: the Bushes (poor Jeb), Kasich, the Libertarians (Rand Paul & father), and of course the Klintons!

REAL Americans are winning this one!

[DONW]

When supposed “small government” folks embrace authoritarian leaders, there really isn’t much stopping us from serious human tragedy. Hell, dawg80 already thinks it is funny to point automatic machine guns towards Mexico. Others are happy to single out Muslims. Some, like dawg80, would like to wipe them all out. But apparently all is good as long as it isn’t Jews that are the target.

For those that have not been to the Holocaust museum in DC, you need to go. When you walk through the history made alive exhibit, I think it is incredibly important to ask yourself how the German people could have allowed this to happen - they tolerated a lot of discriminatory policy and rhetoric before it got to the level of concentration camps and gas chambers. In the context of human history, this a modern Western culture where this occurred. Is it really too hard to believe that it could happen here? My words will never do the museum justice, people need to see it themselves and have their own introspection.

What is disturbing to me is that we had a democrat president that rounded up Japanese citizens of this country and put them in prison camps simply because they were of a certain race. If anybody deserves reparations, it would be them, because, they lost everything they had and many of them owned their own business and their own home. Why is this never mentioned by democrats?

Hitler has to the stupidest dictator in history. Had he realized how smart Jews were, they could probably have built him an atomic bomb. Could we have built a bomb in 22 months without Robert Oppenheimer and several other Jews working with him. Those muslims in Iran have been working on a nuclear bomb for over 20 years. Also, there may have been one of those Jews that Hitler killed that would have discovered a cure for cancer. There's a reason Jews are so smart.

[dawg80]

It was sad, and disturbing, what happened to Japanese Americans during WWII. It's one of those historic events that happened and it does no good, 75 years later, to say "oh, how horrible!" For too many people, today, they don't want to hear any of the rationale for it. For folks living in 2019, especially those without any historic knowledge/perspective, it's easy for them to say "Blah, blah...don't want to hear any justification for it."

On a side note, but related, it is time for the annual August 6th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima, and the annual "Oh, the US was wrong to use that weapon."

Just read an article on the planned invasion of Japan, and the Japanese plans for defense of their homeland. Both sides knew the US would have to land on Kyushu, in southern Japan, to establish a base. Man, oh, man... even conservative estimates, including by General Douglas McArthur, projected US combat losses to top 340,000 and Jap losses to exceed 1 million military and over 400,000 civilians. And that just for Kyushu, an island just south of the mainland.

There are lots of numbers, but think on this. From Iwo Jima to Okinawa the Japs deployed a total of 1,900 planes to serve in Kamikaze attacks. That spread over thousands of square miles of ocean against a moving target, the US fleets at sea. At Kyushu, alone, the US would have to enter narrow straights and the transports, in particular, would be primary targets of the 6,000 planes the Japs had earmarked for defense of Kyushu in Kamikaze attacks. Literally tens of thousands of US Troops would be killed while still on transports. There was no way to defend against the Kamikaze attacks and the Japs had learned valuable lessons already. In one instant, before Okinawa the Japs sent 188 planes on a suicide run. There was minimal fighter cover since the Japs had few experienced/skilled pilots left that could make the long roundtrip escort run, find the US fleet, and defend against the Hellcats and Corsairs filling the skies. Out of the 188 planes only 5 hit a US ship. The rest were shot down or damaged to the point the inexperienced pilot lost control and/or just missed his target. The problem for the Japs was the destroyer screen a hundred miles out in front of the fleet. With superior radar, CAP coordination and the awesome firepower packed on US ships for air defense, the US knew exactly where the attacking Kamikazes were and where they were heading LONG before they arrived.

Now, fast forward to Kyushu. The US would have no destroyer screen that far out. In this case all the advantage switched to the defending Japs, the Kamikazes would have only to make short hops, fly 90% over land, with landmarks they knew very well, and thus could fly below radar anyway, and be right on top of US ships with only a few minutes warning, at best.

And all of this just for Kyushu. It would get really bad when we made for Tokyo... nope, dropping the two A-bombs, which combined took about 140,000 lives, saved MILLIONS of lives.

[Guisslapp]

What is disturbing to me is that we had a democrat president that rounded up Japanese citizens of this country and put them in prison camps simply because they were of a certain race. If anybody deserves reparations, it would be them, because, they lost everything they had and many of them owned their own business and their own home. Why is this never mentioned by democrats?

Hitler has to the stupidest dictator in history. Had he realized how smart Jews were, they could probably have built him an atomic bomb. Could we have built a bomb in 22 months without Robert Oppenheimer and several other Jews working with him. Those muslims in Iran have been working on a nuclear bomb for over 20 years. Also, there may have been one of those Jews that Hitler killed that would have discovered a cure for cancer. There's a reason Jews are so smart.

I had responded to this post but a couple of my responses have seem to have disappeared.

In short, I don’t think you will find democrats posting in these forums, but I think slavery and Japanese prison camps are great examples of the lack of humanity Americans have proven to be capable of demonstrating. I would like to think that if this forum was around back then folks would have been against it, but lately I am starting to doubt it. After all, it would be the opposite of Nationalism to oppose these tragedies.

[DONW]

I had responded to this post but a couple of my responses have seem to have disappeared.

In short, I don’t think you will find democrats posting in these forums, but I think slavery and Japanese prison camps are great examples of the lack of humanity Americans have proven to be capable of demonstrating. I would like to think that if this forum was around back then folks would have been against it, but lately I am starting to doubt it. After all, it would be the opposite of Nationalism to oppose these tragedies.

I never heard of these Japanese prison camps until I moved to Arkansas in 1970 and launched my boat at Rising Star Camp on the Arkansas River. There is a plaque at Rising Star Camp telling their history. There was another Camp about 20 miles north of Pine Bluff.

[Guisslapp]

I never heard of these Japanese prison camps until I moved to Arkansas in 1970 and launched my boat at Rising Star Camp on the Arkansas River. There is a plaque at Rising Star Camp telling their history. There was another Camp about 20 miles north of Pine Bluff.

It was well before my time. Were the camps kept secret? It looks like folks might not have realized that many people were imprisoned for nothing more than their race until the 1980s because that is when Carter appointed a Commission to investigate it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comm...t_of_Civilians

With that said, I would hazard to guess that many if not most Hitler sympathizing Germans were unaware of the genocide while it was going on.

[detltu]

I had responded to this post but a couple of my responses have seem to have disappeared.

In short, I don’t think you will find democrats posting in these forums, but I think slavery and Japanese prison camps are great examples of the lack of humanity Americans have proven to be capable of demonstrating. I would like to think that if this forum was around back then folks would have been against it, but lately I am starting to doubt it. After all, it would be the opposite of Nationalism to oppose these tragedies.

I disagree with that. That is incredibly over simplified. I would agree that in the south the general consensus was that keeping slavery was best for the southern states, but that doesn't mean that opposing it was the opposite of nationalism. Certainly anyone who thought it best to give up slavery to remain in the union would have been participating in nationalism. Same for anyone who thought the slaves deserved to be freed for the good of the country. Same for the union soldiers who went to war to free the slaves and reunite the country. You have to think it would have been better for the south to avoid war.
People who protested the treatment of Japanese Americans during WW2 could still be considered nationalist.

You seem to be confusing nationalism with blind support for the governments actions. If so then Trump supporters are a terrible example of nationalism.
Nationalism used in a context unrelated to foreign policy is ambiguous and probably regularly misused.