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Thread: The end justifies the means

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    The end justifies the means

    Being semi-retired with time to do useless things I have been watching Netflix, including watching series I never bothered with when they were on network TV. One such is Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. If you're familiar with the series then you know the Trekkie hero in this one is Captain Sisko, held in the same esteem as captains Kirk and Piccard. Well, in one episode, Season 6 Episode 19 if memory serves, he violates Federation laws, protocols, regulations...and his plot ends up with an assassination (murder) of a political figure, a Romulan Senator. And while it was one of Sisko's accomplices who plotted and carried out the assassination, without his knowledge, the good captain does learn the truth after the fact. He decides the "right" thing to do is cover it all up, and that same accomplice also murders another person who was hired to perform some tasks since he could not be trusted not to talk. It was a brutal foray into political intrigue.

    The episode is told as a flashback as Sisko is dictating into his personal log recounting the whole plot. During which he justifies each step since "the end" is designed to save lives. Basically, in case you never watched the series, the powerful enemy, the BAD GUYS, is an organization called The Dominion, which recruits and overtakes planets and peoples...just like the old Soviet Union did...and is building their empire. Finally they invade Federation space (that's us, Earthlings) and the Klingons agree to ally with us to fight this common enemy. The Romulans sign a non-aggression pact with The Dominion and are sitting on the sideline just watching as The Dominion is winning the war. Every day, at Deep Space Nine, those soldiers read the latest casualty lists and Captain Sisko grows angry especially when friends and comrades appear on the list. He decides they can only hope to win the war if the Romulans join the allies. His plot is designed to create fake intelligence showing The Dominion plotting a sneak attack against the Romulans, much like Hitler's surprise attack against Stalin's Soviet Union, who had also signed a non-aggression pact.

    Anyway, the point is this episode is an interesting study in "does the end justify the means?" Sisko's dictation into his personal log addresses all the moral, ethical, and legal questions one would expect, and that we all know, should something similar happen here, said person(s) would be prosecuted (impeached!) to the fullest extent of the law (and beyond). At the end of the episode Sisko is alone in his quarters and he wraps up his dictation saying, upon reflection if he had to do it again, he would! Then he says, "Computer...delete my personal log" and the screen fades to black.

    If you have Netflix watch that episode. It's only 45 minutes, no commercials, on Netflix.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Sisko was my favorite of the Star Trek captains and while I don't remember the episode clearly, I do believe that they were in the middle of a war. There are no rules in War, especially with Cardassians and Bajorans being involved. Captain Sisko throughout his time at DS9 was constantly stuck between conflicting forces. The Federation was a colonizer protecting Bajor from a former Colonizer in Cardassia. Picard or Kirk were never really put in that position. Thats what made DS9 better. Also go back and watch Voyager sometime. Captain Janeway made some pretty dubious calls when her back was put up against the wall.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    I watched Voyager just to see Seven of Nine...

    As for this, I wasn't condemning Sisko. In fact, I lean toward defending his actions/motives. Of course in a modern political viewpoint, if Sisko was a (D) everything he did would be considered patriotic, if he were a (R), he'd be impeached! But, really, I just wanted to start a conversation on the bigger, more encompassing, picture of people in authority acting on their own initiative even if it violates policies or even laws.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Aren’t Christians inherently deontologists rather than consequentialists?

    The problem with “ends justify the means” thinking is that if often ignores the very real long term consequences that flow from ignoring the means for some short term consequentialist outcome.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Aren’t Christians inherently deontologists rather than consequentialists?

    The problem with “ends justify the means” thinking is that if often ignores the very real long term consequences that flow from ignoring the means for some short term consequentialist outcome.
    I don't think the TV series character Captain Sisko was a Christian.

    The
    “ends justify the means” is the socialist Democrats sacrificing the U.S.A. and American taxpayers for their 1960's - 2000 enabling of minorities agenda and their aborting babies for more air, food and water for all. And now this past decade and the new one for their class warfare, reparations and socialist/marxist agenda. And all of this for the sake of money and power!

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Aren’t Christians inherently deontologists rather than consequentialists?
    Yes

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Aren’t Christians inherently deontologists rather than consequentialists?

    The problem with “ends justify the means” thinking is that if often ignores the very real long term consequences that flow from ignoring the means for some short term consequentialist outcome.
    But in the Sisko scenario how does one define "the morality of action(s)?" There is nothing moral about arbitrary bureaucratic rules/policies/regulations. But, saving lives is very much a Christian ideal, and is certainly more moral then obeying rules. Actually equating deontology to Christianity is not a relation I've ever seen connected. One is dedication to duty/obligation the other a moral "do the right thing." So, as I think about it now, I think there is no connection.

    Take the case of Robert E. Lee. He thought it was his duty to serve his home state, rather than follow his deeper convictions that slavery is wrong and he didn't agree with secession. If deontology = Christianity then there would have been no personal conflict for him, and others who also had to make such a decision. Instead Lee wrote about this conflict, trying to rectify the opposing positions.

    The consequences of following the "ends justify the means" is what nearly got Sisko, and indeed, the Federation and Earthlings in deep chit. The Romulan Senator accurately determined the intelligence was fake and that would have pushed the Romulans from being neutral to allying with The Dominion. Instead Sisko's accomplice had the foresight to plant a bomb on the Senator's shuttle, just in case the plot was discovered, and he assassinated the Senator, before he could communicate with his leaders. Then the Romulans placed the blame on The Dominion and declared war on them.

    I realize it is just a TV show, but it does explore fairly well, the conflict that someone, in authority, might make with the intentions of doing something right. Morally, it could be considered the wrong thing to do for someone, with the means, not to act. Like: you knew and you did nothing, and now people are dead because of it. Well, sorry, but I didn't want to violate some bureaucratic policy.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Christian ethics is merely a subset of deontological ethics.

    I personally am a consequentialist/utilitarian if I had to pick one side of the debate, but I think religious consequentialists get themselves in to trouble when they fail to think about the consequences of violating widely-held deontological ethics and rules.

    There is a penalty to improper means that is more existential than most consequentialist decisions will make.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Christian ethics is merely a subset of deontological ethics.

    I personally am a consequentialist/utilitarian if I had to pick one side of the debate, but I think religious consequentialists get themselves in to trouble when they fail to think about the consequences of violating widely-held deontological ethics and rules.

    There is a penalty to improper means that is more existential than most consequentialist decisions will make.
    So...where does Captain Sisko land in this discussion?

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    For example, ignoring the “rule of law” because you know it will get you a good result ultimately erodes the rule of law. Do that enough (and who knows how many times that is) and you no longer have a rule of law and all the convenient aspects of life we take for granted that is based on that bedrock American principle.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    So...where does Captain Sisko land in this discussion?
    I will leave that discussion to you nerds. I am not a Trekkie.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Would you have been in favor of aborting Hitler?

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I will leave that discussion to you nerds. I am not a Trekkie.
    You don't have to be a nerd or a Trekkie to offer an opinion on Sisko's actions. You should have enough information on the situation to render such an opinion. Unless your answer is post #10. In which case Sisko should have done nothing i.e. not violate regulations, and allow the war to continue as it was going.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Sisko is a Prophet (god).

    The point of In the Pale Moonlight, when combined with the rest of the series, is the ends do not justify the means. It destroys everything you're trying to protect. It didn't just costs "one Romulan Senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

    It's part of why the Federation is in the horrible shape it's in now in Picard.

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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Would you have been in favor of aborting Hitler?
    I would have been in favor of assassinating him! Not aborting him, unless you are granting me the power to know how he would have turned out later.

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