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Thread: The end justifies the means

  1. #16
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    I would have been in favor of assassinating him! Not aborting him, unless you are granting me the power to know how he would have turned out later.
    That is the problem with consequentialism, you don’t really know what the future holds. In this scenario, you can assume that you were Nostradamus but this is your only opportunity to get him before the Holocaust.

  2. #17
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    You don't have to be a nerd or a Trekkie to offer an opinion on Sisko's actions. You should have enough information on the situation to render such an opinion. Unless your answer is post #10. In which case Sisko should have done nothing i.e. not violate regulations, and allow the war to continue as it was going.
    Actually, I don’t think I know nearly enough background to have an opinion on Sisko.

  3. #18
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by JuBru View Post
    Sisko is a Prophet (god).

    The point of In the Pale Moonlight, when combined with the rest of the series, is the ends do not justify the means. It destroys everything you're trying to protect. It didn't just costs "one Romulan Senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer."

    It's part of why the Federation is in the horrible shape it's in now in Picard.
    A bit off topic, but I watched DS9 last night on H&I and in the episode, Miles O'Brian kept moving 5 hours into the future for moments at a time. They used this to change the fate of the Station and his own fate. I forgot how often Star Trek tackled existential questions. I also forgot how much I disliked the Romulans. They remind me of the Chinese Communist Party.

  4. #19
    Super Moderator PawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond reputePawDawg has a reputation beyond repute PawDawg's Avatar
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    The more syllables in a word the more insulting it sounds to the elite to say words they spent all day looking up before they used them.

  5. #20
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    The more syllables in a word the more insulting it sounds to the elite to say words they spent all day looking up before they used them.
    I assume you are invoking me, but I am not sure which multi-syllable word you are having problems with.

  6. #21
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I assume you are invoking me, but I am not sure which multi-syllable word you are having problems with.
    Narcissist alert.

  7. #22
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by PawDawg View Post
    The more syllables in a word the more insulting it sounds to the elite to say words they spent all day looking up before they used them.
    I will be the first to admit that I had to look up both terms that Guisslapp invoked. As I have gotten older, I have found that people tend to over complicate matter's of conscience in order to justify actions. Myself included. I have started to simplify my motives and actions and rely on things I know to be concrete in nature. Simplification can be boring and there is less to talk about but I sure do sleep better at night.

  8. #23
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Good gawd! Watched another episode of DS9 and Dr. Bashir, with Sisko's blessing and cover up, murdered a Federation agent, one of those "31" guys, the secret agency, kind of like the CIA. Sheeesh! folks on DS9 have no morals, ethics, or restraints!

  9. #24
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Pretty sure every person that competed in debate in high school is well versed in this classic debate and would think of it in the same words I used.

    They might have also thought of the word “utilitarianism”, which is a species of consequentialism, and was usually the preferred ethical paradigm when debating against deontology.

    If you aren’t the “thinking” type, you might find that you would prefer a Trump rally.

  10. #25
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Good gawd! Watched another episode of DS9 and Dr. Bashir, with Sisko's blessing and cover up, murdered a Federation agent, one of those "31" guys, the secret agency, kind of like the CIA. Sheeesh! folks on DS9 have no morals, ethics, or restraints!
    They are in the middle of a war that has dire consequences for all in the Alpha quadrant. Also they are on the front lines where there is no effective way to defer to the bureaucratic Federation. What people do in foxholes is far different than what they do at their dining table.

  11. #26
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Good gawd! Watched another episode of DS9 and Dr. Bashir, with Sisko's blessing and cover up, murdered a Federation agent, one of those "31" guys, the secret agency, kind of like the CIA. Sheeesh! folks on DS9 have no morals, ethics, or restraints!
    Sloan committed suicide.

    Using the Romulan mind probe was illegal, though.


    I'm surprised you didn't bring up why Bashir and O'Brien were trapping Sloan and his organizations role in what's going on.

  12. #27
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    Re: The end justifies the means

    Quote Originally Posted by JuBru View Post
    Sloan committed suicide.

    Using the Romulan mind probe was illegal, though.


    I'm surprised you didn't bring up why Bashir and O'Brien were trapping Sloan and his organizations role in what's going on.
    That's right, I had remembered Bashir blasting Sloan with the fazer and thought he died from his wound. But, he did commit suicide, that's right.


    Genocide. And another of those questions about the means and the end.

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