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Thread: Offense: What are the answers?

  1. #1
    Champ The Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond reputeThe Historian has a reputation beyond repute
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    Our offense and how it’s evolved has been brought up in another topic, and I’d like to talk about that here. Like many of you, the performance of our offense at the A&M game did have me looking for answers. What’s changed with our offense since Crowton’s arrival in 1995? How can a defense like Rice, which was giving up a completion percentage of 75% to the teams it faced, stop us cold in the second half?

    In the past few weeks, I’ve looked back at video from past years, particularly 96, 97, and 98, to find some answers. Games like Cal, Alabama, and Mississippi State. What made our offense work in the past? Here are a few observations:

    1. We ran many of the same plays we run today, but we did it out of a dozen or more formations, while today we run only a handful of formations, mostly with a one-back set.

    2. I had forgotten just how much we ran two-back sets in those seasons. We alternated between two-
    back, one-back, and empty sets, running each about a third of the time.

    3. We used a lot of motion and mis-direction, much more than in the past few years.

    4. The combination of the motion and multiple formations made it difficult, if not impossible, to predict our play-calling. It made the screens, quick outs, deep passes, and passes to the backs out of the backfield much harder to stop.

    5. The use of the two-back sets and our ability to run out of them, which was better than I remembered, made defenses much more honest than we’ve seen this year. Teams couldn’t drop seven or eight, but they couldn’t stack the line with seven or eight, either. This also made the empty sets more effective.

    6. Those packages forced teams to play much more man coverage, as opposed to this year when teams have dropped back into zone and never been forced out of it. While driving away from Happy Valley, listening to the Penn State postgame show, one of their linebackers talked extensively about their switch from a man to zone defense at halftime.

    7. We got away from the two-back sets in 1998 when we were loaded at receiver. In 1998, against Boise, a team that had beaten Utah the week before, we just lined up our athletes against theirs and went down the field. I think we still have talent at receiver but not like in years past. That offense, which is much more like what we’re trying to do now, is also much harder to run without that kind of depth.

    What I’d like to see and what our coaches might be working on in the next few weeks is a group of packages that adds a back in the backfield with more motion and misdirection in the offense. I think a few changes in the looks we give defenses will force teams like Boise and Nevada to not cheat into dropping seven or eight people into zone coverage. It’s our best chance of matching our athletes against theirs.

    The alternative for those defenses is to allow our offense to line up with a lead blocker and run all day. When teams did try to drop people against us in 96 and 97, we simply got into a two-back set, even the I-formation, and ran right at defenses. We had pretty good running games against all of the teams I’ve mentioned, but the aim was really to keep people honest.

    A good example is the Toledo game in 1996. They had a team that won the MAC and went to the Vegas Bowl. But they didn’t have our athletes. Crowton ran enough two-back sets in the first half to keep them honest. They were forced to play much more of a base defense than they wanted to. And we made them pay. They are very similar to what Boise is today, a team Slaudawg describes best when he compares their team speed to ours, which is much better.

    I don’t expect anything new against SMU. But we’re going to have to make some changes to beat Nevada.
    My biggest fear is that our offense has been simplified so much we don’t have the ability to make these kinds of changes, or perhaps others, in such a short period of time. Bick and Conroy might be suffering through sleepless nights wondering the same thing.

  2. #2
    Hunter Lee's Hero HogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond reputeHogDawg has a reputation beyond repute HogDawg's Avatar
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    You really ARE a Historian! I love it. I also find your comments to be a very accurate description of Bulldog football in the late 90's except for one thing: Even with Bobby Ray Tell, Crowton had a very difficult time running the football in '97 and '98. Still, your points are valid.

    But I still have one question: WHERE ARE ALL THE BIG RECEIVERS?

    Under Crowton, Tech threw to our Tight End MUCH more often than we do today. Former Bulldog TE Josh Bradley (6-7, 274) finished his Tech career with 131 receptions over 3 years (1995-97.) Before Bradley, the Dog's previous best TE's were Terry Bradshaw's TE, Larry Brewer, who later played with the Atlanta Falsons, with 101 career catches from 1966-69, and former Houston Oiler Mike Barber in the 1970's with 57 career catches. As you can see, Bradley blew these guys away.

    Bradley averaged 44 receptions per year for 3 years. David Newman (6-7, 255) also added another 20 catches in 1998. Our TE's today will be fortunate to finish the 2002 season with 15 catches combined.

    These TE's, along with Sean Cangelosi (6-4, 200), James Jordan (6-3, 220), Trey McIntosh (6-6, 220), David Newman (6-7, 220), Marlon Chambers (6-8, 275), and Allen Stark (6-3, 210), all had great size and good hands. In pass blocking situations, these guys were big enough to protect Rattay. When the defense dropped backed to flood the zone, Rattay could count on these BIG guys to make a nice catch over the middle, the way Cangelosi did against Alabama, or the way Bradley did against CAL.

    Today, I see a VERY SMALL receiving corps at Tech. Ahmad Harris (6-0, 176), Eric Franklin (5-11, 191), Corey Berlin (5-11, 174), Freddie King (5-7, 156), Chris Norwood (6-1, 180), D J Curry (5-10, 167), Shaun Piper (6-1, 179), and Tramissian Davis (6-0, 170) make up one of the smallest recieving corps in Division 1A. Yes, we have a couple of SMALL TE's in Steve Brown (6-3, 225) and Major Richmond (6-3, 215)) and one large TE in Arron Capps (6-6, 245), but we DON'T THROW TO ANY OF THEM!

    Two messages here:

    1) Recruit bigger, stronger recievers

    2) Throw to the TE more often. It's a lost art at Tech.

    HD

  3. #3
    Administrator EJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud of EJ's Avatar
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    Historian... That would be a good write-up to send to the coaches. Doesn't mean that they would take it to heart, but it might make an impression.

    BTW, nice first post. Welcome to BB&B.

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    Champ TYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond repute
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    Excellent posts by all in this thread! Thanks! Hey, HISTORIAN how often did we go deep in those videos (about how many times per quarter complete or otherwise)?

  5. #5
    Champ ARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really nice ARKDAWG02's Avatar
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    We definitely need to throw to the tight end more. Also, what about mixing in a few passes to the running backs. Try to get Joe isolated on a linebacker that can't keep up with him.

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    Champ TYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond repute
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARKDAWG02
    We definitely need to throw to the tight end more. Also, what about mixing in a few passes to the running backs. Try to get Joe isolated on a linebacker that can't keep up with him.
    That would be MOATS as well.

  7. #7
    Champ ARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really niceARKDAWG02 is just really nice ARKDAWG02's Avatar
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    Yeah, Moats for sure. Lets hope we come out of this open date with a wrinkle or 2 on offense, anything to keep the defense honest. That's the thing, even if you don't connect, if you throw a couple of passes early to the tight end or the running backs it gives the defense something to think about and might open something else up.

  8. #8
    Champ dawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond repute dawg80's Avatar
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    Funny thing, driving home tonite I had this sudden thought, do we put a man in motion? I tried to remember if we have (do), but thinking back to the games I've seen this year, I couldn't remember. So, do we?

    I know my short-term memory is all but gone, but I can't believe I can't recall if we use motion or not.

    Someone, puhleeeze! answer this.

    Thanx.

  9. #9
    Champ Dirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond reputeDirtydawg has a reputation beyond repute Dirtydawg's Avatar
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    Now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing any at all in the games I've seen. I'm glad Historian posted what he did. He helped resolve some of my confusion about our plays that last couple of years. For some reason, I thought we didn't have as many plays as we did at one time, but I remember seeing all the screens, etc. After reading his post, I realized that what was missing was the multiple formations and motions. I never realized how much difference something like running the same play out of a different formation could make. In fact, I think it was the fact that we used John Simon in motion out of the backfield in the past that enabled us to us him as a receiver his senior season. I think Conroy needs to start installing these multiple formations now so that we can gradually learn them for next year. It's amazing how much better our offense works with multiple formations.

  10. #10
    Champ OLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond reputeOLDBLUE has a reputation beyond repute
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    HogDawg said ..."These TE's, along with Sean Cangelosi (6-4, 200), James Jordan (6-3, 220), Trey McIntosh (6-6, 220), David Newman (6-7, 220), Marlon Chambers (6-8, 275), and Allen Stark (6-3, 210), all had great size and good hands. "

    Great size and GOOD HANDS ! !
    I was telling my wife how I should Appologize to James Jordan for complaining about the few times he dropped those wide open passes after the gazillion drops this year. You all probably remember the all out leap and catch Corey Berlin made last year to keep a drive alive to insure a win. I still remember Jordan in the north endzone of the 1999 "ulllahlah" game making an incredable catch under two defenders about 8 inches off the ground, and the ref's taking it away calling it incomplete. Considering just these two examples, have you seen that type "all out, sacrifice the body, horizontal, finger tip snag" this year???? I think about 90% of the catches I've observed this year indicate our receivers are taught to catch the ball with their arms into the body, facing the QB only, and Heaven forbid that they stretch out and give it their all to bring the ball in. Is this an indication of desire? I'm inclined to think so. A real hunger and sell it all out effort in the receivers can make a QB look a lot better.
    Okay, that's just my opinion. I want these guys (current receivers)to prove me wrong. :twisted:

  11. #11
    Varsity Bulldog ST5 has turned a few heads around hereST5 has turned a few heads around here ST5's Avatar
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    Great post, Historian. Were any of you at the QB luncheon in Shreveport before the OSU game? I don't know how to say this without naming names in a negative way but I will give it a shot. Bicknell claimed that one of our running backs, let's say a 'scat' back wasn't too swift on an academic level and couldn't translate signals from the sideline. For instance, if the signal man showed pitch right, he would hold out his right hand, well, this scat back would see the hand pointing to his left because he was facing the signal man and run pitch left. How are we going to run a more complicated offense if our players don't have the capacity to do it? I totally agree that it would help us if we had smart, alert people in the game, but I don't think it would work across the board with all of our players. My opinion is based solely on what I have heard Bicknell say. If coach believes that his players could handle it and if our OC has the capacity to mix it up, then I am all for it. I also wish that we could see our TE's with more receptions. How many receptions does Capps have? From what I have seen, Capps is in on mostly running plays and Richmond is in on passing plays. Does Capps have a hard time holding on to the ball? His size could be greatly utilized in our passing game especially in the red zone where we have needed quite a bit of help lately.
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    Last edited by ST5; 01-18-2011 at 09:27 AM.

  12. #12
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    Those are all excellent points. I have notice one other thing when comparing Luke to Tim: When Tim's primary receiver was covered, he was great at "buying time in the pocket." He would make slight moves in the pocket to avoid the rush. How many times do you remember Tim quickly turning his head across the field and then back another direction before zipping his passes to an open receiver?

    On a busted play, when he was forced to scramble out of the pocket, you just knew a big play was coming. This is when Tim would ALWAYS GO DEEP. The more time a QB has in the pocket, the better chance a receiver has of getting open. Tim's biggest plays were when he was scrambling around finding more time and then hitting someone that had slipped behind the safety. Luke, on the other hand, always looks for the closest man to dump the ball off to or tucks it and runs.

    I heard an NFL commentator say that good QB's always look deep and work their way back. I think Luke is ONLY looking at the short routes.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator Tech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond repute Tech77's Avatar
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    Great summary, Historian.

  14. #14
    Administrator AustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to beholdAustinDawg is a splendid one to behold AustinDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HogDawg
    Today, I see a VERY SMALL receiving corps at Tech. Ahmad Harris (6-0, 176), Eric Franklin (5-11, 191), Corey Berlin (5-11, 174), Freddie King (5-7, 156), Chris Norwood (6-1, 180), D J Curry (5-10, 167), Shaun Piper (6-1, 179), and Tramissian Davis (6-0, 170) make up one of the smallest recieving corps in Division 1A. Yes, we have a couple of SMALL TE's in Steve Brown (6-3, 225) and Major Richmond (6-3, 215)) and one large TE in Arron Capps (6-6, 245), but we DON'T THROW TO ANY OF THEM!
    HD
    You know, I was telling someone that very thing the other day. It seems to me that we've been searching for the next Troy Edwards since he left. You know, a playmaker, "scat back" type that can catch a 3 yard pass and turn it into an 80 touchdown. These guys are good to have in your arsenal, but only when coupled with a large, "possession type" receiver -- a la' Cangelosi, Bradley, and Chad Mackey. I think perhaps Chris Norwood could fill that role, and he's certainly done an excellent job(when they actually throw to him). But the next couple of classes should focus on getting some big possession receivers.

    I noticed at the Rice game, they had a guy playing weak side cornerback (#2). This guy could not have been an inch over 5' 10", buck seventy five. PLUS, he was consistently playing about 10-12 yards off of the receiver. In the "old days" we would have absolutely worn this guy out, but I honestly don't think we threw to him once the whole game.

  15. #15
    Administrator EJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud ofEJ has much to be proud of EJ's Avatar
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    These are the receivers & tight ends we signed last year. Things are looking a little bigger.

    TE -- Steve Brown -- 6-3 230 -- Independence CC (Kansas)
    TE -- Anthony James -- 6-5 250 -- Istrouma
    WR -- Lewis Carter -- 6-1 180 -- Richwood
    WR -- Eric Newman -- 6-0 185 -- Oak Grove
    WR -- Christopher Norwood -- 6-1 180 -- Hinds CC (Miss.)
    WR -- Josh Odums -- 6-1 180 -- Mansfield
    WR -- Jason Thomas -- 6-5 190 -- Lakeview Centennial (TX)

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