Salvation Army Rejection of Lottery Proceeds

[markay714]

Over the holidays, my sister and I had a lengthy discussion about the Powerball winner tithing on his winnings. In my church we have been told that a) we don't want the pastor preaching our funeral if we die on a gambling boat and b) the pastor doesn't want a tithe on lottery winnings. I'm totally opposed to gambling and thought that my church wouldn't take this man's tithe. My sister thought I was crazy and any church would take it!

Well, I found it interesting that today on the ride home from work they were discussing the Salvation Army in Naples, FL rejecting a $100,000 contribution from a man who had given out of his $14,000,000 lottery winnings. There was quite a bit of debate on the issue with both sides feeling quite strongly - the host thinking it was awful of the Salvation Army to not take the money. Many callers thought it was admirable for them to reject the gift.

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on this. I sort of want to write the Salvation Army in Naples a check to say thanks for standing up for what you think is right. Courage of one's convictions is a great thing to see!

[PawDawg]

Interesting that you brought this up Markay. In our Sunday School class this past week, our teacher asked what we thought about the guy tithing his powerball winnings. I said they should take it and ask no questions.

First of all, if you start monitoring how folks make their money then there won't be nearly as much "honest" money out there to give to the Lord. Anybody that sold beer or liquor would be out. People who supply beer and liquor stores would be out. Trial lawyers would be out (make that most lawyers). People who own companies who don't treat their employees fairly would be out. Republicans would be out. Anybody who sinned would be out. That doesn't leave much room for "honest" money does it?

I know you are a fine Christian person, but loosen up a bit. I was impressed that the guy had enough courage to say what he did about giving the money to a couple of churches. If only one person comes to be saved because of the money he gave, then it was worth it. Right? There may be tainted money, but there is no tainted salvation.

[markay714]

There are plenty of denominations that don't have a problem with gambling - and I suppose that those churches would be more than happy to take the gambling winning money. My pastor has let us know how he felt about the issue when he was preaching about gambling - not just in case one of our members won the big one.

Since when did the ends justifying the means become ok? That seems to be what you are suggesting. Biblically, we are taught to be good stewards of our money and really, as a Christian, everything that I have belongs to the Lord - wonder how the Lord would feel about me using his money to "invest" in a chance to win something that I have a worse chance of winning than getting struck by lightning - twice. Actually, I find it admirable that the guy that won the Powerball big one wants to donate a part of it and to help his former employees. But, I don't think God needs any of us or our money - He's God and can do what He wants in the manner that He wants.

My biggest problem with the gambling thing is the same thing that the leader of the Salvation Army guy in Florida said - they preach against that, and have seen people struggle with gambling, it'd be hypocritical for them to accept it now. Clearly there are far more people destroyed by gambling than those that have these happy stories of getting great wealth as a result. I'm sure plenty of folks spend within their means and enjoy it as a great time, but as Andy Rooney said in one of his books, its "Robbing Peter to Pay Peter". No - I don't think the ends justify the means. I'm sure plenty of folks give a tithe of money where they didn't work hard enough for their employer, or some of the things you described and all I can say is that is between them and the Lord - it wouldn't exactly be noticeable in the offering plate.

[PawDawg]

"I'm sure plenty of folks give a tithe of money where they didn't work hard enough for their employer, or some of the things you described and all I can say is that is between them and the Lord - it wouldn't exactly be noticeable in the offering plate." - Markay

Exactly my point. The gambling money that somebody tithed would be between them and the Lord too.

I've been a Baptist all my life, but that doesn't mean that I follow the religion blindly. I'll give you a prime example.......

First of all, let me tell you that I am first and formost anti-sin. Not anti-gambling, porn, prostitution, gay, etc.. Let me add that my sins that I continue to commit, but ask forgiveness for and (try to, but don't always) repent daily, are still sins in the eyes of God. Sin is sin, but you know that already.

A few years ago during one of the senatorial elections, there was also a gambling issue on the ballot. Our pastor gave a sermon on the evils of gambling and told us all to be sure to vote against it, if we wanted to be right with God. (I'm paraphrasing) I was livid! No mention of the Senatorial candidate who stood up for those same Baptist beliefs that he had just finished stepping on my toes about. Just the gambling. I later went to him and asked why he didn't promote the candidate who obviously held those beliefs and he said, "Well we can't get into politics here in church." :roll:

For the record, I don't buy lottery tickets. I can't afford to play blackjack, but I love it (can't play with scared money). I will occasionally play poker with the boys and have a beer or two while doing it. I have seen several homes wrecked due to gambling being brought into this state. Most of that was due to video poker. Luckily most of that was voted out up here and I don't have to witness the destruction first hand any longer, but I still realize that many families are being destroyed daily due to the evils of gambling.

[TechDawgFan]

I've flip flopped a bit on this, but I'll chime in.

In Malachi 3:10, the Lord says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. . . . " [NIV] Malachi records earlier many of the sins of the Israelites earlier in the book related to offering and sacrifices. The KJV uses the word "all" instead of whole, but the Hebrew for this is "kole", which translated, means:

"properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense):—(in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever)."

The Lord was indescriminate in this. He chastises the Israelites for many sins present in their lives, but it overall focus of the book is place the Lord first, bring him the best whether it is in offerings, sacrifices, tithe, service, your life.

Each and every one of us who follow the Lord have an OBLIGATION to give the Lord the tithe. This man is no different. No matter what other sins may be present in his life, he is commanded to bring the tithe.

Is it the churches responsibility or right to deny him the opportunity to do this? Is not the church ONE of the storehouses of the Lord?

Now the Salvation Army is a different animal. Although it IS a Christian organization, it isn't quite in the same boat. If they make the stand that they will not accept gambling donations, that's their preogative. But I'd have problems with a church that did the same.

TDF (Chris)

[TechDawgMc]

A few years ago during one of the senatorial elections, there was also a gambling issue on the ballot. Our pastor gave a sermon on the evils of gambling and told us all to be sure to vote against it, if we wanted to be right with God. (I'm paraphrasing) I was livid! No mention of the Senatorial candidate who stood up for those same Baptist beliefs that he had just finished stepping on my toes about. Just the gambling. I later went to him and asked why he didn't promote the candidate who obviously held those beliefs and he said, "Well we can't get into politics here in church."

For what it's worth, maddawg, your pastor was absolutely right legally. The feds make a sharp distinction between talking about political issues and talking about candidates. If a church openly proclaims in favor of a candidate, it can have the IRS breathing down its neck concerning losing tax exemption.

There are, of course, inconsistencies on how this is enforced and it is a bit of sophistry at times, but it's still the legal position.

[EJ]

...the Salvation Army in Naples, FL rejecting a $100,000 contribution from a man who had given out of his $14,000,000 lottery winnings...

What if this man had $100,000 in savings prior to winning the lottery? Can they say where the money came from?

EXAMPLE: Say I am on my way to Wal-Mart and I stop to get some gas at a nearby gas station. While there, I buy a scratch-off lottery ticket and win $5 dollars. I stick the money in my pocket. When I get to Wal-Mart, there is a Salvation Army bell ringer at the door. I reach into my pocket, find the $5, and toss it into the pot.

Uh-oh, don't look now but the Salvation Army just accepted proceeds from a winning lottery ticket...

Just my $0.02

[weunice]

For my edification can someone please show me where gambling (games of chance) is forbidden or even discouraged in the Bible. After all, an apostle was chosen by casting lots. I have never heard an anti-gampling sermon. I am curious to know how one would sound ...

That said, I personally feel that a lottery (and most gambling for that matter) is a round about way of taxing the poor. Sure they have to "choose" to be taxed but that is essentially what ends up happening. If you give me $50 to gamble with, I think I will stick it in one of those cheap index funds or wait until I have enough to invest it some decent stocks. Still a gamble but the chances of an actual return are much higher and in the long run, as long as I am well diversified, history shows I will actually make money.

[markay714]

For my edification can someone please show me where gambling (games of chance) is forbidden or even discouraged in the Bible. After all, an apostle was chosen by casting lots. I have never heard an anti-gampling sermon. I am curious to know how one would sound ...

That said, I personally feel that a lottery (and most gambling for that matter) is a round about way of taxing the poor. Sure they have to "choose" to be taxed but that is essentially what ends up happening. If you give me $50 to gamble with, I think I will stick it in one of those cheap index funds or wait until I have enough to invest it some decent stocks. Still a gamble but the chances of an actual return are much higher and in the long run, as long as I am well diversified, history shows I will actually make money.

No. 11 in the 10 Commandments is not "Thou shalt not buy a lottery ticket". If you were to hear an anti-gambling message in my church it would be more along the lines of application of other scriptures and include some of the following:
1) Everything we have as Christians belongs to the Lord. Do you think the Lord would want you spending His money in that way. We are to be good stewards.
2) Thou shalt not have any gods before Him is a 10 Commandment. Even for those of us that don't gamble the pursuit of the almighty $ is often elevated to a god.

Exod 20:3-6
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
(NAS)

3) You shall not covet your neighbor's property (#10) also showed up in some anti-gambling messages that I've heard.

As Christians we belong to God and not to ourselves. For me that changes (or should change and is changing) my whole motivation in life. If the Lord chooses to bless me financially (He has but certainly not in lottery proportions) then He will through my work most likely. I can't argue with those who say they get entertainment out of it - I know someone who planned how she'd spend every nickle of it if she won when the lottery jackpot got high and I'd have to say she got entertainment value out of it. But, it doesn't have a place except as yet another source of temptation in my life (to dwell on things that I shouldn't).

That's a sampling of an anti-gambling sermonette I suppose - or at least most of the ones I've heard. It gets thrown in with other sermons often w/ the same basic theme.

[PawDawg]

I realize that TechDawgMc, but there are ways to get a point across during an election and sermon without endorsing a particular candidate. If they are gonna preach against one sin I say bring the others to light too. No need in isolating the ones most of the congregation feels they are free of.

Personally I'd rather those issues didn't come up in sermons at all unless they are teaching the congregation how to be more tolerant of others while the Holy Spirit leads us to be convicted of our OWN sins. Sin is an equal opportunity kind of deal.

[markay714]

I realize that TechDawgMc, but there are ways to get a point across during an election and sermon without endorsing a particular candidate. If they are gonna preach against one sin I say bring the others to light too. No need in isolating the ones most of the congregation feels they are free of.

Personally I'd rather those issues didn't come up in sermons at all unless they are teaching the congregation how to be more tolerant of others while the Holy Spirit leads us to be convicted of our OWN sins. Sin is an equal opportunity kind of deal.

My pastor was kind of cute about getting his point across on who to vote for in the most recent Senate elections. At the close of the service he told us to be sure and vote, and if we wanted to know who to vote for to go by his house and pray for a sign - there was a Tony Perkins sign in his yard on the first round. On the second round, he urged us to be sure and vote with the issues that mattered and if we wanted to know who to vote for to again - go by his house and pray for a sign. Guess whose sign was in his yard this time.

[TechDawgFan]

For my edification can someone please show me where gambling (games of chance) is forbidden or even discouraged in the Bible. After all, an apostle was chosen by casting lots. I have never heard an anti-gampling sermon. I am curious to know how one would sound ...

You don't want me to start preaching :wink:

You find many occurances of the word lots or lot in the Bible. This was a form of dice that was used in gambling. There are also several instances where God's hand was obviously upon the casting of lots for specific purposes, Jonah on the ship for example. You will not, to my knowledge, find a specific scripture which DIRECTLY points to gambling as being a sin. But you will find many instances of lots being cast for Godly AND worldy things. One example is the soldiers who gambled at the foot of the cross for Jesus' clothes.

What you WILL find, however, are tons upon tons of verses related to the heart of the Christian. It comes down to where do you find your joy? Is it in money? Is it in family? Is it in your job? Is it in hobbies? Is it in the flesh? Or is it in the Lord? The Bible is clear that we should put away all of our worldy desires and seek Him. That being in the presence of God can heal every hurt, fill every need, and fulfill our every desire if we will only follow Him.

So, take that back to gambling and the previous discussion on the tithe. First, everything we have belongs to the Lord. We have it because He gave it to us. He asks that we give the tithe back to him. We are stewards with the rest. Is gambling with the Lord's money being a good steward? Second, what is your reason for gambling? Is it to hit it big? (lust of money) Is it the thrill? (fulfill the flesh) Is it because you can't help it? (addiction) What is the reason? If our reason for doing anything is not based upon our relationship with God, it's based upon the world.

That's basically the way the sermon would go in my book.

TDF (Chris)

[Dirtydawg]

Couldn't one argue that buying stock in a company is akin to gambling?

[PawDawg]

I guess one could, but the odds are much better in stocks if you are patient and not too greedy. Most Blue Chip Stocks are a "sure thing", but you have to be able to wait around for at least 10 years (15 is better) for the payoff.

Now quit trying to cause trouble and give us your opinion on tithing gambling proceeds.

[Dirtydawg]

Most Blue Chip Stocks are a "sure thing"....

I'm not really investment savvy or knowledgeable, but wasn't Enron a Blue Chip stock?

Don't worry, I'll give my opinion, but I'm trying to recall a scripture that reflects my belief on this subject. I'm sure you already know my stance on this, however. Wasn't there a controversy several years ago with the Salvation Army and homosexuality? Didn't they basically, through some action, accept homosexuality. How do they draw the line in which dogma they wish to follow?

But to answer the question, I believe the church should accept moneys from gambling. I know that there are those who have stated that we are called to be good stewards and that gambling our money is not being a good steward. My take on that is this. We are to tithe the first portion of our income. That is all God requires. How is spending what you have left, once you meet your other financial obligations, being a bad steward? To me, it's no worse than buying more of a house than you need, or buying more of a luxury vehicle than you need, or dining out more than you need.

You or Chris can help me on this scripture, but I'm trying to recall the scripture of the talents. I'm at work and left my Bible at home. As I remember, didn't the master only punish the servant who buried his talent for fear of losing it. Wasn't there even one servant who lost his talent while trying to acquire more for his master? Yet, he was still rewarded. It seems to me that if one uses his money after tithing to gain more money and then tithe on that, then he has done nothing wrong.

The sin isn't in the gambling. It's in the love of money. If your first inclination is to take your paycheck and buy lottery tickets or hit the craps table, before tithing, in the hopes of trying to win more money, then you have sinned. I suspect that those who consider others bad stewards for gambling their portions after tithing wouldn't pass the litmus tests for good stewardship either if the Lord were to scrutinize their personal spending habits.