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Thread: Would Shreveport game count toward meeting attendance?

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Tech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond repute Tech77's Avatar
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    Thread on the CUSA board says "no."

    I thought it would, but I've certainly been wrong before.

    One guy said he got it straight from the NCAA that the game could count toward the minimum home game (5) requirement, but would not count toward attendance.

    So, I suppose, if this guy is correct, you could get 40,000 for a Shreveport game, average 14,999 for four Ruston games, and officially miss your target attendance.

    That is very close to the scenario we had this year.

    This came up because the NCAA lists our attendance this year as just over 15,000, which is the figures minus the Shreveport game.

    I am attempting to get clarification on this.

    One big question: If this is true, why is ULM trying to get the "home" game against Arkansas at War Memorial?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech77
    Thread on the CUSA board says "no."

    I thought it would, but I've certainly been wrong before.

    One guy said he got it straight from the NCAA that the game could count toward the minimum home game (5) requirement, but would not count toward attendance.

    So, I suppose, if this guy is correct, you could get 40,000 for a Shreveport game, average 14,999 for four Ruston games, and officially miss your target attendance.

    That is very close to the scenario we had this year.

    This came up because the NCAA lists our attendance this year as just over 15,000, which is the figures minus the Shreveport game.

    I am attempting to get clarification on this.

    One big question: If this is true, why is ULM trying to get the "home" game against Arkansas at War Memorial?
    it fixes one problem they have, 5 home games. I saw that thread too, I am wondering the same question.

  3. #3
    Varsity Bulldog coona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your timecoona$$tiger Ultimate jerk and not worth your time
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    The guy is wrong.

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    Champ aubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the earsaubunique seems to have something between the ears aubunique's Avatar
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    I believe that the NCAA official site likely lists all these possibilities.
    Someone with time please check it out.

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    Super Moderator Tech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond repute Tech77's Avatar
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    Okay, Mr. coona$$, sir. Point me to the evidence so I can straighten them out.

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    I thought that you could count all of your games that were held at a site that housed more than half your games. Also you could count one game that is not at that site.

    For example: if we have 5 home games and 3 are in Ruston and 2 are in Shreveport, we could count all the games in Ruston and 1 of the games in Shreveport. In this scenerio we would need one more game in Ruston, or only play one game in Shreveport, which we do.

    I heard this in regards to 5 home games, I assummed that meant attendence as well. But, we all know the story that goes along with assuptions.

  7. #7
    Varsity Bulldog Edward_Longshanks is an unknown
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    Arkansas State plays a game a year up here in Little Rock. They count it towards the attendance requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech77
    Okay, Mr. coona$$, sir. Point me to the evidence so I can straighten them out.
    I'm still looking '77. I've seen the rule but trying to find something in the NCAA Rules is like looking for a needle in a hay stack. I'm sure Frisco will address this once he logs on. He knows EVERYTHING. He even knows more than HogDawg! :wink:

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    I have forwarded a question to the ncaa - waiting on a reply
    ''Don't be a bad dagh..."

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    The answer is yes, but only one game in Shreveport. I suppose you could play 4 in Ruston and 2 in Shreveport and count the higher of the 2 Shreveport numbers. The key is the definition of "home", and the first bylaw below says that one home contest at a neutral site, is in fact "home".


    Too much info.... oh well
    http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership.html#manuals

    20.9.6.2 Football Scheduling Requirements
    The institution shall schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football games against members of Division I-A and shall schedule and play at least five regular season home football games against members of Division I-A. For purposes of satisfying the scheduling requirement, a contest shall be considered a home contest if it is played in the stadium in which an institution conducts at least 50 percent of its home contests. In addition, an institution may use one home contest against a Division I-A member conducted at a neutral site to satisfy the five-home-game requirement. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3 Football-Attendance Requirements
    The institution annually shall average at least 15,000 in actual attendance for all home football games. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.1 Counting Attendance Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004
    For purposes of computing attendance figures, an individual may be counted if any one of the following conditions applies: (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (a) Attendees are issued tickets that are collected upon admission to the game and retained; (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (b) Attendees enter through and are counted by a turnstile that is monitored by a representative of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis; or (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (c) Attendees enter through a gate at which a representative of the department of athletics counts them individually with a manual counter, and the representative provides a written statement verifying the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis. (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.2 Certified Audit Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004
    In meeting the football-attendance requirements of Division I-A, an institution must undertake an annual certified audit verifying its football attendance. The audit must be conducted by an outside auditing firm. The audited football actual-attendance figures must be received in the NCAA national office not later than the February 15 following the completion of the football season and NCAA national office staff shall verify compliance with all Division I-A attendance requirements. The certified audit and materials (including the ticket manifest) must be available for inspection for a four-year period. (Adopted: 1/10/92, Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.5.8 Minimum Price of Counted Tickets I-A
    A "regularly established price" is a price that is (a) established prior to the season, (b) at least one-half of the face value of the highest-priced ticket sold and (c) printed on the face of the ticket. Season tickets sold at a discount of not more than one-half of the highest-priced ticket sold shall qualify as tickets sold at regularly established prices. Any ticket sold that does not meet these criteria is a ticket sold at a "discount price," in which case the ticket holder is required to attend the game in order to be counted. Any ticket sold for less than one-third of the face value of the highest-priced ticket sold for the game may not be used in counting attendance for compliance with Bylaw 20.9.6.3.


    Edited to erase bylaws that will not apply next season.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zharkins
    Too much info.... oh well
    http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership.html#manuals

    20.9.6.2 Football Scheduling Requirements
    The institution shall schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football games against members of Division I-A and shall schedule and play at least five regular season home football games against members of Division I-A. For purposes of satisfying the scheduling requirement, a contest shall be considered a home contest if it is played in the stadium in which an institution conducts at least 50 percent of its home contests. In addition, an institution may use one home contest against a Division I-A member conducted at a neutral site to satisfy the five-home-game requirement. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3 Football-Attendance Requirements
    The institution annually shall average at least 15,000 in actual attendance for all home football games. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.1 Counting Attendance Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004
    For purposes of computing attendance figures, an individual may be counted if any one of the following conditions applies: (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (a) Attendees are issued tickets that are collected upon admission to the game and retained; (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (b) Attendees enter through and are counted by a turnstile that is monitored by a representative of the department of athletics who verifies in writing the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis; or (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)
    (c) Attendees enter through a gate at which a representative of the department of athletics counts them individually with a manual counter, and the representative provides a written statement verifying the accuracy of the count on a per-game basis. (Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.2 Certified Audit Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004
    In meeting the football-attendance requirements of Division I-A, an institution must undertake an annual certified audit verifying its football attendance. The audit must be conducted by an outside auditing firm. The audited football actual-attendance figures must be received in the NCAA national office not later than the February 15 following the completion of the football season and NCAA national office staff shall verify compliance with all Division I-A attendance requirements. The certified audit and materials (including the ticket manifest) must be available for inspection for a four-year period. (Adopted: 1/10/92, Revised: 4/25/02, effective 8/1/04)

    20.9.6.3.2 Conference Exception to Home-Attendance Requirement I-A
    An institution that fails to meet the home-attendance requirement may retain Division I-A football classification if it holds membership in a member conference (which conducts championship competition in the sport of football) in which at least six of the conference member institutions sponsor football and more than half of the football-playing conference member institutions meet the attendance criterion for the applicable period.

    20.9.6.3.3 Institutional Exception to Home-Attendance Requirement I-A
    An institution that fails to meet the home-attendance requirement in 20.9.6.3-(a) or (b) may retain Division I-A football classification if it has averaged more than 20,000 in paid attendance for all of its games (at home and away) for the applicable period. Such an institution shall play at least four home games in any year in which it utilizes this provision.

    20.9.6.3.5 Counting Attendance
    For purposes of computing attendance figures, tickets must be sold at regularly established ticket prices and must be counted, whether or not they are used for admission. Tickets sold at discount prices may be counted as paid attendance only if they are used for admission. Student attendance may be counted as paid attendance if the student actually is in attendance and any one of the following conditions applies:
    (a) The student paid an athletics fee;
    (b) The student paid an institutional fee of which a certain portion was allocated to the department of intercollegiate athletics; or
    (c) The student paid no athletics fee, but the institution allocated to the department of intercollegiate athletics a certain portion of tuition income or general operating funds as the equivalent of a student athletics fee.

    20.9.6.3.5.8 Minimum Price of Counted Tickets I-A
    A "regularly established price" is a price that is (a) established prior to the season, (b) at least one-half of the face value of the highest-priced ticket sold and (c) printed on the face of the ticket. Season tickets sold at a discount of not more than one-half of the highest-priced ticket sold shall qualify as tickets sold at regularly established prices. Any ticket sold that does not meet these criteria is a ticket sold at a "discount price," in which case the ticket holder is required to attend the game in order to be counted. Any ticket sold for less than one-third of the face value of the highest-priced ticket sold for the game may not be used in counting attendance for compliance with Bylaw 20.9.6.3.
    so what does all of that mean?

  12. #12
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    I don't know. It is like the Bible, I guess....it all depends on the interpretation. The way I read it, the rules define one home game at a neutral site as "home", and goes on later to say that you must average 15,000 at "home". Seems to me that with the current language, the Shreveport game is home for both rules.

    One side note...I am not sure if Bylaws 20.9.6.3.2 and 20.9.6.3.3 are going away or not. Those exceptions would save a conference like the MAC after the attendance requirements go into effect.
    But then again, who cares what I think...

  13. #13
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    Thanks, zharkins. I didn't want to have to type the new bylaw manually.

    I also saw that thread on the KillerFrogs CUSA board. The bylaws are clear that a neutral site "home" game against a Division I-A team can be counted as one the required five I-A home games. The attendance section of the new bylaw just says home games and doesn't state whether a neutral site game counts. That appears open to interpretation.

    Here is part of the post that BuckinFrog made on KillerFrogs:
    I got this straight from an NCAA rep --

    Teams that play an annual neutral-site game -- i.e., Texas-Oklahoma, Georgia-Florida, et al -- CAN count one neutral site game toward their requirement of five home games. (The attendance would not count toward meeting the average, but those teams in those games don't have a problem meeting attendance anyway.)


    It wouldn't surprise me to see that be the official NCAA position--you can count neutral site games but cannot use the attendance. That would eliminate the nlulm scenario of "buying" a home crowd in Little Rock and force all schools to average 15,000 for all games (minimum 4) played in their official home stadium.

    And the old conference/institutional exceptions are gone as of August 1. It's 15,000 per school and eight schools for a I-A conference with no exceptions.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator Tech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond reputeTech77 has a reputation beyond repute Tech77's Avatar
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    The way I read it they didn't say you can or cannot count attendance for the "neutral site" game toward your average. They did specifically say you can count it for 5-home-game requirement, so they need to specifically say you can count the attendance in your average. Even though it's our old friend "Organizer" aka "eager eagle" helping stir this up on the CUSA board, I'd like to know the answer. We have noticed that, in the past, the NCAA has not counted our Shreveport attendance in their official listings for our average. Maybe that's not an error. Maybe that is the way they intend to do it when the numbers are so crucial, beginning next season.

  15. #15
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    Don't you believe that ULM has checked with the rules committee to verify that they can count the attendance before agreeing to the game in Little Rock? Certainly ULM will get very little money from the gate, and probably a smaller guarantee than usual to get to count the attendance as their own and stay 1-A. They have to be trading money for attendance.
    But then again, who cares what I think...

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