Where Does Tech Stand on This??

[arkansasbob]

i share your disalusionment with politicians and their "reforms". but you must admit that this reform at least tries to address the issues of kids not learning what needs to be learned. most politicians, when they want to make a political show of supporting schools, just indescriminantly increase funding. some even do really rediculous things to show that they are pro-education; such as ronnie muskgrove (former governor of mississippi) when he decided to put the state's already struggling budget into even more of a bind by putting the internet in every classroom. he was so proud that mississippi was the first state to have the internet in every classroom. as an educator, do you think that is the best use of funds for educating young people? el dorado's math and english "chair" positions also come to mind. these are just ways for politicians to pay a political friend the salary of three or four teachers while looking very pro-education to the voters (whose money they are wasting).

it really does seem rediculous, though, to teach the standardized test. i need some evidence before i believe that is actually a no child left behind directive. i don't mean to doubt you, coach, but i really believe that sort of thing would have been brought up by the opposition before the bill was passed. instead, all they did was try to scare everybody about school choice.

[PawDawg]

it really does seem rediculous, though, to teach the standardized test. i need some evidence before i believe that is actually a no child left behind directive. i don't mean to doubt you, coach, but i really believe that sort of thing would have been brought up by the opposition before the bill was passed. instead, all they did was try to scare everybody about school choice.

NCLB is leaving the ones behind who would otherwise be ahead. It is part of the dumbing down of America.

[arkansasbob]

NCLB is leaving the ones behind who would otherwise be ahead. It is part of the dumbing down of America.

to be honest, i don't know a whole lot about nclb. since my kids aren't school aged yet, i didn't really research it a whole lot. i was just thrilled that someone was actually attempting real reform, rather than just throwing money at a problem hoping it will go away. if there really are serious problems, i would like to know what they are. cliches like "dumbing down of america" don't help me understand what the problem is. how about some specifics?

[gimpcoach]

good point, maddawg.
bob, the rampant test teaching has not hit the nclb only states yet because there is no national test yet. i have heard but can't prove that the finalists bidding to publish the national test are all major bush campaign contributors. louisiana is ahead of the pack in that we have had a state test for a number of years. this fiasco has been getting worse and more blatantly aimed at teaching the test as the years go by. the state department has raised the passing score as the kids learn more and more about the test to keep their predictions on the failure rate accurate. only problem is the kids have done a far better job than the bureaucrats imagined. published statistics also don't come close to what a thorough inspection reveals.
another point about nclb is that it does not throw money at the problem, at least not federal money. it does require states and local systems to spend huge sums of money to implement the act. most school systems in louisiana went from break even to massive deficits when nclb kicked in. if you want to check on how education is doing in a state, check the ACT scores and the employment rate. that will tell you how educated your population is, not the results of national test.

[arkansasbob]

i have heard but can't prove that the finalists bidding to publish the national test are all major bush campaign contributors.

i've also heard that bush just went to war in iraq so that his coporate friends could get their greedy hands on iraqi oil and huge rebuilding contracts. i also heard that the recent tsunami was a cia plot to keep muslim countries in southeast asia living in poverty.

another point about nclb is that it does not throw money at the problem, at least not federal money. it does require states and local systems to spend huge sums of money to implement the act. most school systems in louisiana went from break even to massive deficits when nclb kicked in.

i'm sure it does cost money to implement, but it spends it with a specific objective in mind. as opposed to simply increasing the amount of money going to each school, or creating new unneccesary beaurocracy.

if you want to check on how education is doing in a state, check the ACT scores and the employment rate. that will tell you how educated your population is, not the results of national test.

most of the kids that are "left behind" don't take the act, and the local employment rate has little to do with the level of education (and it is certainly not a good way to compare schools in cities to schools in suburbs or rural schools). the only direct way to measure a school's performance is by measuring the students' performance against a national standard.

[PawDawg]

to be honest, i don't know a whole lot about nclb. since my kids aren't school aged yet, i didn't really research it a whole lot. i was just thrilled that someone was actually attempting real reform, rather than just throwing money at a problem hoping it will go away. if there really are serious problems, i would like to know what they are. cliches like "dumbing down of america" don't help me understand what the problem is. how about some specifics?

I'll give you a couple of specifics.

One thing on the nclb agenda is wireless internet for "rural schools". There are billions of dollars available for a program inside nclb that will pay for these services. I'm not going to say that Bush cronies are the ones getting the contracts, but I will say that companies with enough "get up and go" to work this program will be the ones to get the contracts. Except of course, the ones that will be set aside for minority business owners.

Is it a waste of money or will the infusion of capital help to fuel our nations economy? Bottom line: It looks good for the kids, but really........wireless internet?

Another one.....Just to keep it simple.....Teachers are given material that every student must test well on. While some students struggle to learn the test material, others become bored with it. They are no longer challenged, therefore they are "dumbed down" while waiting on the few to grasp the material. This is an everyday thing and some good teachers have learned how to overcome it and still teach. God bless the teachers who have a heart for education.

One more.....My neighbor is a nurse. We were discussing the above with her just this week. She told us that this also goes on in the medical field. Nurses are being taught the test instead of being challenged to learn. Pretty scary huh?

[gimpcoach]

BOB AND MADDAWG BOTH MAKE SOME GOOD POINTS. I HOPE YOU WILL BOTH CONTINUE TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS ON THE LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL. BOB, YOU SEEM YOUNG, WITH YOUNG CHILDREN. I HOPE YOU WANT THEM TO BE TAUGHT THE MAXIMUM THEY ARE CAPABLE OF LEARNING. THESE TESTS ARE MEASURES OF MINIMUM SKILLS.
YOUR COMMENTS ON THE REASONS FOR GOING INTO IRAQ ARE TRUE. SO FAR I CAN'T FIND ANY CONNECTION BETWEEN BUSH AND THE TSUNAMI. WISH I COULD. BY THE WAY, I AM A REGISTERED INDEPENDENT. I HATE ALL POLITICIANS EQUALLY WITHOUT REGARD FOR RACE, COLOR, CREED, NATIONAL ORIGIN, SPECIES, OR BREED.
NCLB IS CREATING A HUGE NEW GROUP OF BUREAUCRATS ONLY LOCAL SYSTEMS ARE HAVING TO TAKE MONEY AWAY FROM THE CLASSROOM TO PAY FOR THE COORDINATORS FOR NCLB AS WELL AS THE TESTS THEMSELVES.
MY COMMENT ON THE EMPLOYMENT RATE REFERS TO THE EMPLOYABILITY OF THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES IN A STATE. MANY SCHOOLS PASS OUT HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMAS SO KIDS CAN "GET A GOOD JOB" BUT THE STUDENTS ARE NOT CAPABLE OF HOLDING A JOB. AS THIS TESTING PROGRAM PROGRESSES THE STUDENTS BECOME GREAT AT TAKING A TEST BUT THEY STILL DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS OR KNOWLEDGE TO HOLD A JOB. IF YOU WANT TO USE A TEST TO COMPARE STUDENTS, USE A TEST OF MAXIMUM KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS, NOT A NARROW, "MADE FOR TV" TYPE INSTUMENT LIKE THESE PROGRAMS ARE USING.
IN MY AREA I TRAVEL AROUND THE PARISH AND HAVE FOR OVER 20 YEARS. I HAVE WATCHED EAGER YOUNG TEACHERS GET FED UP AND LEAVE AND I HAVE SEEN GREAT, MASTER TEACHERS GET FED UP AND LEAVE. NEVER HAVE I SEEN MORAL LOWER.
WE HAD CLEP TESTING AT TECH WHEN I WAS A FRESHMAN INSTEAD OF AP. A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE WAS ABLE TO GET COLLEGE CREDIT THROUGH THE CLEP TEST. AP AND CLEP BOTH TEST THE LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, NOT THE SKILL AT TEST TAKING. THIS IS WHAT TEACHERS WANT TO TEACH, THE MAXIMUM, NOT THE MINIMUM.
SORRY ABOUT THE ALL CAPS, BOB, BUT MY OLD EYES SEE BETTER IN ALL CAPS AND SINCE IT'S BEEN ALMOST 40 YEARS SINCE I HAD TYPING I NEED TO SEE WHAT I'M DOING
GC

[Bill Pup60]

One more.....My neighbor is a nurse. We were discussing the above with her just this week. She told us that this also goes on in the medical field. Nurses are being taught the test instead of being challenged to learn. Pretty scary huh?

Mad.. Here's one that's even scarier! In many cultures great emphasis is made on rote memorization. Thus in some subject matter, an excellent "test" score can be had with virtually no understanding of the subject. Generally, the "data'" doesn't last very long since there are no hooks to tie it to.

In many of these cultures, a student can go straight from High school to Medical School. Then is 4 years, they are an MD! (Supposedly). Then they come to the US, and because of their excellent grades in "med school" manage to get hooked up with a residency and then take their boards and pass with a perfect score. Then they are your "board certified" doctor!!!!

Now I know there are certainly exceptions to this where some come here and spend time in US med schools. But there are a lot like the ones I described above. I always dig into the background of any MD I go to. And I have found that some foreign MD's simply will not divulge all the information and get insulted if you ask. That's when I head for the door.

[arkansasbob]

BY THE WAY, I AM A REGISTERED INDEPENDENT. I HATE ALL POLITICIANS EQUALLY WITHOUT REGARD FOR RACE, COLOR, CREED, NATIONAL ORIGIN, SPECIES, OR BREED.

same here. but i have somewhat less hate for bush because he is willing to do some things that are unpopular even at the risk of losing votes, because he believes its the right thing to do. this doesn't mean i agree with everything he does.

i appreciate the specifics, mad and gimp. most schools have programs for advanced students so that they don't have to get "dumbed down" by sitting through stuff that bores them. nclb doesn't do away with that, does it? it seems to me it is just a way to make sure the ones who are not in the advanced class are actually learning something.

and the wireless internet thing really is rediculous. the more we talk about this the more i hate politicians. but then again, i can't go much further in that direction.

[gimpcoach]

abob,
re:your comments concerning advanced classes and advanced students.
yesterday, 2/22/05, our high school teachers from all over the parish were treated to a half day workshop, compliments of the state department of education. they were informed that next year, all students will be taught the same subject matter, the same way, at the same time, without regard to academic standing. our advanced classes were discontinued for the most part several years ago because ability grouping is supposed to "hurt the self image of lower achieving students". now, all classes in a subject, will be taught the same way at the same speed by the same techniques using the same material. since i am one of a small number of people who have been allowed to read the test (we have to read the test to special ed students who can't read since they have to take the test also), i know that what is going to be taught next year is basically what is on the test. the teachers are in an uproar, but it's the same thing the elementary teachers have been going through for years now. keep your eyes on louisiana newspapers next school year for more developments.
sorry i was slow with this reply but president's day and two doctor's appointments got in the way.
gc