%#x!&%##@* gasoline prices!!

[Guisslapp]

And the real driver for the price of gasoline is the price of oil and taxes. Refining costs +distribution/marketing costs + profits is less than the federal tax alone. The price of oil is largely driven by supply, demand, and speculation. If vehicles converted to natural gas, you would see more demand and speculation on natural gas and, thus, higher prices for natural gas. That would suck for people who use natural gas for heating, and for those who buy electricity from those that generate energy from natural gas.

[saltydawg]

And the real driver for the price of gasoline is the price of oil and taxes. Refining costs +distribution/marketing costs + profits is less than the federal tax alone. The price of oil is largely driven by supply, demand, and speculation. If vehicles converted to natural gas, you would see more demand and speculation on natural gas and, thus, higher prices for natural gas. That would suck for people who use natural gas for heating, and for those who buy electricity from those that generate energy from natural gas.

I was told that the USA has so much NG that we will soon export it to Asia and Europe. A lot of drilling rigs from gone from drilling for NG to drill for oil or other liquids. Yes, demand will go up but so will supply, especially since the lead time will be significant. Hard to see serious speculation on the price of NG since it more a function of supply and demand and foreign events don't play a big role in its price.

As for using NG for space heating, any price increase will just have to be absorbed by the consumer. The folks who use oil for heating are really up the creek without a paddle. once the price of NG goes back to about $8 MCF the demand for coal-fired power plants will re-surface.

[saltydawg]

I admire your ongoing efforts, Salty, to enlighten our conservative brethren and sistren regarding the historic alliance between big business and the the two major parties. But in a world without any sort nuance, complexity, or gray areas (ie. that of a Republican), it's unlikely they're going to get it.

Private sector economic decisions = unequivocably always 100% good, beyond reproach
Private sector sexual decisions = must be carefully monitored
Public sector economic decisions = unequivocably always 100% bad, beyond redemption
Public sector sexual decisions = majority rules, man

That's the worldview you're arguing with, Salty. And they're never gonna see it any other way.

I remember the one time I tried to explain to dawg80 that socialism (of the Marxist variety) and National Socialism were, in fact, diametric opposites as far as economic theory is concerned. But since they both employ the "S" word, he couldn't hear it. That's what you're dealing with.

So unless you just enjoy yanking their collective chain (and maybe that's exactly what you're up to), I advise you give it a rest. It's 2012, and not one of our GOP friends has come around yet. It wont be the end of the world if the Paw-litics forum just exists as another Republican echo chamber.

I dont know if you went to Tech or if you have met any of these folks. But many of them are my friends, and it makes them feel good about themselves to affirm daily the correctness of their views. Let em have it, I say.

I agree with you for the most part. Don't have any expectations for changing their opinions.

[saltydawg]

$2.30 per cubic foot would be very expensive relative to gasoline. Natural gas gives you 1000 BTUs per cubic foot, whereas gasoline gives you closer to 115,000 BTUs per gallon.

I think that NG is priced at $2.30 for a thousand cubic feet. Is that correct?

[dhussdawg]

I think that NG is priced at $2.30 for a thousand cubic feet. Is that correct?

Yes, $2.30 per million btus or just slightly less than 1,000 cubic feet or MCF.

I think NGVs will be added slowly over the next decade, but I think it will only end up accounting for 1 BCF/day. I worked on the economics of a CNG project and it was supply a small fleet of dump trucks (10 maybe). They only used 150 MCF a day, or 150 times 7 for 1050 gallon equivalent. NG has to be very cheap in order for people to be willing to pay $50,000 extra for the engine in a diesel or truck of equal size, plus people are still distrustful of NG due to its historical volatility. Of course, there is a solid NG forward curve through 3 years in order to somewhat lock in your price over that period.

[Champ967]

Government entities don't exist to operate at a profit, and thus wasting money is a daily affair. I do have a GOOD perspective both in the LA gov and the Federal gov on topic.

Charities dont exist to produce profits. Are they also daily money wasters?

Rhetorical question, of course.

I reject the premise that service motive will necessarily waste resources and that profit motive will always maximize efficiency.

[hoppinmad]

"I'd like to enlighten our conservative brethren and sistren that I invented the internet." algore

[dawg80]

.

I remember the one time I tried to explain to dawg80 that socialism (of the Marxist variety) and National Socialism were, in fact, diametric opposites as far as economic theory is concerned. But since they both employ the "S" word, he couldn't hear it. That's what you're dealing with.

What you're dealing with are those of us that know the truth.

Wrong...again. No, I meant to say Wrong....still. Saying someone is wrong again implies they are sometimes right. You and salty are just 100% wrong all the time.

You are right to advise salty to give up here. Go on some of those silly blogs where more of the ignorant masses hang out. You can fool some of those morons.

One last time, Hitler's Nazis were "socialists." Their economic policies were classic socialism, the exact kind being practiced by obummer and his legion of nazis. Hitler was also a devout racist. He practiced genocide against those he personally did not like. That is a totally separate issue from his socialist economic policies.

Now, obummer and his ilk also choose sides. He practices a form of selective hateful policies against his political enemies. Some will argue he would love to follow more of Hitler's domestic policies, and I can see that. He's shown signs of his hate toward those he 'does not like.'

But, like Hilter, that leaps beyond simple economic policy. obummer = Hitler. Sorry if the truth hurts, nazi. You and salty can go out goosestepping with your fellow nazis.....

[T_Won]

The Nazi's were considered right-wing because they were anti-Communist. But they were also anti-Capitalist and believed strongly in government control and dictatorship. We don't have a party in the US that is similar to the Nazis. The anti-capitalists in the US are Marxists and Communists and left wing, and they believe in government control and dictatorship. The right wing in the US is pro-capitalism and anti dictatorship. But because of their belief that the government officials know how to rule better than the citizens, you would have to say Nazis are more Democrat than Republican.

[FishingBack]

Charities dont exist to produce profits. Are they also daily money wasters?

Rhetorical question, of course.

I reject the premise that service motive will necessarily waste resources and that profit motive will always maximize efficiency.

The proof is in the puddin'. We have a ton of years of experience seeing how inefficient government is with spending resources. I also see it every day. I work for state gov and have worked for fed gov. My parents work fed gov, one of which is GSA.

1 major example (federal):

Boss: Go drive that truck around and put some miles on it.
Me: Why? Isn't that wasteful?
Boss: If we don't use it enough they'll take it from us.
Me: If we aren't using it maybe we don't need it anyways.
Boss: If they take it, we'll never get it back. We never want to lose budget.

This happens every day in government at the state and federal level. I see it in my work at various state agencies.

Another example is the $40 toilet seats and $100 shovels. I have seen a $100 shovel incident.....drove me crazy.

[T_Won]

Is there any other business or charity that could still exist if it had spent $15,000,000,000,000 more than it brought in? And on top of that, the future budgets project $1,000,000,000,000 in losses every year from here on out.... and everyone at that business/charity refuses to cut costs. The only way that can happen is if that entity is capable of printing their own money and passing down the losses to it's clients.

[Champ967]

I work for state gov and have worked for fed gov.

I work for state and have worked for municipal. So I've seen it too.

But "use it or lose it" budgeting, and the resulting disincentive to save, is not unique to the public sector. Conversely, employees who pinch pennies to obtain greater efficiencies are not unique to the private sector.

I'd submit that we often choose to avoid evidence that conflicts with our predetermined worldview. And when presented with such evidence, it's often easier simply to assign malevolent motives to the presenter. (See dawg80's post above.)

[FishingBack]

I work for state and have worked for municipal. So I've seen it too.

But "use it or lose it" budgeting, and the resulting disincentive to save, is not unique to the public sector. Conversely, employees who pinch pennies to obtain greater efficiencies are not unique to the private sector.

I'd submit that we often choose to avoid evidence that conflicts with our predetermined worldview. And when presented with such evidence, it's often easier simply to assign malevolent motives to the presenter. (See dawg80's post above.)

I acknowledge that not all public sector employees are wasteful and that not all private sector employees are masters of thrift.

I'm speaking generally, and generally the private sector is much better at business type activities than the public sector. Another major issue with public sector is using a bunch of idiots to make policy (ie general voters --> representatives --> bad policy).

[Champ967]

Another major issue with public sector is using a bunch of idiots to make policy (ie general voters --> representatives --> bad policy).

What's that famous quote about democracy ... ???

I've gotten to see a little of the legislative "sausage-making" here at the State Capitol. It aint pretty.

Ironically -- the best-researched, most-likely-to-succeed, best-practice policymaking often originates from career public servants, employing their expertise and experience to address a given problem. These policies are then lambasted by legislators as undemocratic hamfisted regulations from unaccountable bureaucrats.

[LABulldog]

Boss: Go drive that truck around and put some miles on it.
Me: Why? Isn't that wasteful?
Boss: If we don't use it enough they'll take it from us.
Me: If we aren't using it maybe we don't need it anyways.
Boss: If they take it, we'll never get it back. We never want to lose budget.

It happens in industry too!