What is a Christian?

[sik-m-boi]

That's the beauty of the scripture...it is so much bigger than any of its "authors" ever could've imagined.

i like that answer, but i think that it might be more complex then all that.

there was not a cohesive body of "christian" works until over 2 centuries after the resurection and wasn't accepted in the current form until late in the 4th century, and even then some christians had problems with it...revelation springs to mind as one book that brought contreversy with it's canonization. even martin luther questioned some of the canonized text. so, i guess it's kind of interesting that most christians don't have a healthy (and i think it is healthy), questioning nature.

i'm not saying that they weren't God-breathed and they certainly were God-inspired, just (i guess) going further out on this tangent.

[PawDawg]

paul most likely had no reason to believe there would ever be a need for a christian canon (NT) to ever be established seeing as he believed (as most did) that Jesus would return in their lifetime. so one must ask himself if paul's "God-breathed" statement was meant to apply to his own words.- sik-m-boi

Which of Paul's writings lead you to believe that he thought this way about the return of Jesus? In his second letter to Timothy (just before he died) he does not indicate that he thought this way. And yes, I think Paul knew God was speaking through him.

[PawDawg]

Martin Luther didn't think the book of James should be included because it touches so much on works. Not arguing, but asking which others Martin Luther didn't want included.

[Dirtydawg]

Interesting answers. Here's my initial thoughts. Let me give a little more clarification for the initial thoughts. I posted the questions mainly because I was stirred from reading responses on here in which someone was talking about some people lying about him and said they were supposed to be Christians. Also, Dawgbitten's experience with the racist preacher and congregation and saying they were supposed to be Christians. Well, can those people be considered Christians? I mean, if someone intentionally lies, is he not a Christian. If someone is a racist, is he not a Christian? You get my point? I tend towards that they might not truly be. We've had something close to this discussion before on the old board. I still believe, as in James, that faith without works is dead.

I know all about being saved by the grace of God, and that one isn't saved by works. However, if one is truly saved, shouldn't he have the works to show for it. The best example I can make would be someone saying he is a Tech fan but yet he flies and LSU flag from his house and car. He has season tickets to LSU and skips Tech games to make the LSU games. He gives to LSU and not Tech. However, he says Tech is the best team and has his heart. Is he telling the truth? Is he truly a Tech fan? Is someome truly a Christian that lies, fornicates, steals, etc...?

On a side note. This thread accomplished one thing I had hoped. It brought Techdawgfan here. I sort of thought and hoped it would. He's got some very good thoughts on this as I remember.

[TechDawgFan]

Oh geez, thanks! Trying to get these wolves to take a few pieces out of me, huh

I've got a response for Boxer, but it will have to wait. I have a meeting to attend.

Chris

[johnnylightnin]

Interesting answers. Here's my initial thoughts. Let me give a little more clarification for the initial thoughts. I posted the questions mainly because I was stirred from reading responses on here in which someone was talking about some people lying about him and said they were supposed to be Christians. Also, Dawgbitten's experience with the racist preacher and congregation and saying they were supposed to be Christians. Well, can those people be considered Christians? I mean, if someone intentionally lies, is he not a Christian. If someone is a racist, is he not a Christian? You get my point? I tend towards that they might not truly be. We've had something close to this discussion before on the old board. I still believe, as in James, that faith without works is dead.

I know all about being saved by the grace of God, and that one isn't saved by works. However, if one is truly saved, shouldn't he have the works to show for it. The best example I can make would be someone saying he is a Tech fan but yet he flies and LSU flag from his house and car. He has season tickets to LSU and skips Tech games to make the LSU games. He gives to LSU and not Tech. However, he says Tech is the best team and has his heart. Is he telling the truth? Is he truly a Tech fan? Is someome truly a Christian that lies, fornicates, steals, etc...?

On a side note. This thread accomplished one thing I had hoped. It brought Techdawgfan here. I sort of thought and hoped it would. He's got some very good thoughts on this as I remember.

The great thing is, it doesn't matter what we think. The One who truly knows the heart of a man makes that call.

And, yes, I still consider myself a Christian even after I said I felt like disposing of dearman's lsu playing cell phone. :icon_wink

[PawDawg]

I know all about being saved by the grace of God, and that one isn't saved by works. However, if one is truly saved, shouldn't he have the works to show for it. The best example I can make would be someone saying he is a Tech fan but yet he flies and LSU flag from his house and car. He has season tickets to LSU and skips Tech games to make the LSU games. He gives to LSU and not Tech. However, he says Tech is the best team and has his heart. Is he telling the truth? Is he truly a Tech fan? Is someome truly a Christian that lies, fornicates, steals, etc...?- Dirtydawg

Your example uses the law as a standard for being a Christian. You know that is not the standard. We can sit in judgement of our brothers all day long. Yes, some things bother me more than others, but that is due to my cultural beliefs. Some of which came from a Christian upbringing.

Example: Who is worse? The person who actually fornicates or the person who only thinks about it.

Not me, you, Billy Graham, or anybody else gets to decide whos heart is right with God. We can only look on in disgust. Is our judgement any more justified than the sins we condemn?

[Dirtydawg]

Interesting answers. Here's my initial thoughts. Let me give a little more clarification for the initial thoughts. I posted the questions mainly because I was stirred from reading responses on here in which someone was talking about some people lying about him and said they were supposed to be Christians. Also, Dawgbitten's experience with the racist preacher and congregation and saying they were supposed to be Christians. Well, can those people be considered Christians? I mean, if someone intentionally lies, is he not a Christian. If someone is a racist, is he not a Christian? You get my point? I tend towards that they might not truly be. We've had something close to this discussion before on the old board. I still believe, as in James, that faith without works is dead.

I know all about being saved by the grace of God, and that one isn't saved by works. However, if one is truly saved, shouldn't he have the works to show for it. The best example I can make would be someone saying he is a Tech fan but yet he flies and LSU flag from his house and car. He has season tickets to LSU and skips Tech games to make the LSU games. He gives to LSU and not Tech. However, he says Tech is the best team and has his heart. Is he telling the truth? Is he truly a Tech fan? Is someome truly a Christian that lies, fornicates, steals, etc...?

On a side note. This thread accomplished one thing I had hoped. It brought Techdawgfan here. I sort of thought and hoped it would. He's got some very good thoughts on this as I remember.

Okay, I've got a little time. Let me further clarify my thoughts on faith v. works which will be shortly rebutted by maddawg.

It is said that one is saved by grace and not works. Here is what that means to me. We are saved by the grace of God because He loves us. I look at it this way. I love my sons. My sons cannot do anything to get me to love them. I just do. If I want to show my love for my sons by giving them gifts, there is nothing they need to do or can do to earn that. I am giving them these things by my grace in my love for them. However, even though I love them, I will not give them these gifts for bad behavior. They know that in order to get these gifts, there are certain things that they must do. I think it is the same way with God. There are no amount of works that we must do or can do to earn God's love. He just loves us. That's where the grace comes in. Because God loves us, He has given us His son as our Savior. In order to have Him as our Savior, we must behave as He requires us.

What does that mean? Well, we must live as Christ lived. But that's impossible one might say. Well, no not really. I'll have to find the scripture, but Jesus tells us we must live as He lived. Would He give that command if He didn't believe we could do it? I don't think so. He told His apostles that all the things He had done they could do. Is it too much to believe that we can live the life Jesus lived? Why else would He have come as a man? I believe it was partly to show that as a man these things could be done. If He had come divinely, then His behavior and examples could be dismissed as having been performed by God and therefore not attainable by man. But, that wasn't the case. He was a man. He accomplished these things as a man to show that mankind is capable of living the life he lived.

[johnnylightnin]

What made your sons your sons? Was it some act that they performed? Is there any way for them to stop being your sons? They can quit acting like your sons, but that doesn't mean they aren't your sons.

My problem with works and their implication on salvation is this, it gives the individual the "power" to insure his own salvation. Maybe it's the calvinist in me, but I don't believe that for one second. God has purposes and he's got a will. His purposes and his will are going to be fulfilled. I'm his child and that gives me the opportunity to be blessed by doing my part to further his kingdom. When I live a life like Christ, I bring glory to God. That's the purpose of man...it's his ultimate end, to bring Glory to God.

[sik-m-boi]

Martin Luther didn't think the book of James should be included because it touches so much on works. Not arguing, but asking which others Martin Luther didn't want included.

it's not the he didn't want them included as much as he questioned them...to my knowledge he never denied any canonized text...the others that come to mind are hebrews and revelation (think there were a few others), and no, i don't know why he questioned them.

in response to your other post:

i cannot give you a specific verse right now for my belief that paul thought the second coming was going to occur in his lifetime. when i get home i'll try to find it for you. and i don't know if paul knew God was speaking through him (i think He was) but, ultimately i don't think it is important that someone is aware that God is speaking though them...it certainly wouldn't invaldate any of his writings for me if he didn't know.

[champion110]

I like this thread. It is interesting to see some of the beliefs that are represented on here.

I believe, like Dirty, that IF you are a true Christian, you walk the walk. That means taking hate out of your heart - as best you can. Even the best Christian slips from time to time. That is being human. God knew that we would "slip" or sin. He allows us to ask for forgiveness for that sin.

However, there is a difference in "slipping" some and living your life full of hate or sinning whenever you feel like it, because you know that you can ask for forgiveness. That is not having God in your heart and shows that you have not accepted Christ as your savior, even if you say that you have.

Our world is full of "pretenders". We see them on TV, hear them on the radio, and even listen to them from the pulpit. Saying you are a Christian is different than BEING a Christian.

We all, probably, agree with most of what I said. However, the differences come in with WHAT we believe is Christian behavior. That is a whole other topic that we have discussed in the past.

So, I am back to my opinion of what a Christian is:
Believing that Jesus came and died for our sins. Simple!

Here is the catch: If you believe that, you will live your life as an example to others and follow the Word of God.

One goes with the other, in my opinion.

[PawDawg]

Okay, I've got a little time. Let me further clarify my thoughts on faith v. works which will be shortly rebutted by maddawg.

It is said that one is saved by grace and not works. Here is what that means to me. We are saved by the grace of God because He loves us. I look at it this way. I love my sons. My sons cannot do anything to get me to love them. I just do. If I want to show my love for my sons by giving them gifts, there is nothing they need to do or can do to earn that. I am giving them these things by my grace in my love for them. However, even though I love them, I will not give them these gifts for bad behavior. They know that in order to get these gifts, there are certain things that they must do. I think it is the same way with God. There are no amount of works that we must do or can do to earn God's love. He just loves us. That's where the grace comes in. Because God loves us, He has given us His son as our Savior. In order to have Him as our Savior, we must behave as He requires us.

What does that mean? Well, we must live as Christ lived. But that's impossible one might say. Well, no not really. I'll have to find the scripture, but Jesus tells us we must live as He lived. Would He give that command if He didn't believe we could do it? I don't think so. He told His apostles that all the things He had done they could do. Is it too much to believe that we can live the life Jesus lived? Why else would He have come as a man? I believe it was partly to show that as a man these things could be done. If He had come divinely, then His behavior and examples could be dismissed as having been performed by God and therefore not attainable by man. But, that wasn't the case. He was a man. He accomplished these things as a man to show that mankind is capable of living the life he lived.

You spend too much time trying to think like God. That is not a bad thing. I do it too. The problem is that we are incapable of doing it. Our finite minds can't begin to comprehend how God thinks. He gives us a guide, but His guide doesn't say that we can "earn" our way. In fact, Jesus came BECAUSE we couldn't "earn" our way.

The ex-liberal in you has you trying to over think everything. You'll get yourself all tensed up like Champ and Champion. Just relax........breath and relax.:icon_wink

[Beaz17]

Our world is full of "pretenders". We see them on TV, hear them on the radio, and even listen to them from the pulpit. Saying you are a Christian is different than BEING a Christian.

We all, probably, agree with most of what I said. However, the differences come in with WHAT we believe is Christian behavior. That is a whole other topic that we have discussed in the past.

So, I am back to my opinion of what a Christian is:
Believing that Jesus came and died for our sins. Simple!

Here is the catch: If you believe that, you will live your life as an example to others and follow the Word of God.

One goes with the other, in my opinion.

My opinion on the highlighted statement above is that Christians should NOT having differing opinions on what Christian behavior is. The Bible tells us how we should act, think, speak, live, etc. Our humanistic nature wants to say I think a Christian should behave like this, but the Bible tells how a Christian should behave.

Note: I am not arguing, just saying what I think.

[PawDawg]

My opinion on the highlighted statement above is that Christians should NOT having differing opinions on what Christian behavior is. The Bible tells us how we should act, think, speak, live, etc. Our humanistic nature wants to say I think a Christian should behave like this, but the Bible tells how a Christian should behave.

Note: I am not arguing, just saying what I think.

oooohhhhh boy! Now you've gone and done it. Taking the scripture LITERALLY!

[sik-m-boi]

My opinion on the highlighted statement above is that Christians should NOT having differing opinions on what Christian behavior is. The Bible tells us how we should act, think, speak, live, etc. Our humanistic nature wants to say I think a Christian should behave like this, but the Bible tells how a Christian should behave.

Note: I am not arguing, just saying what I think.

even assuming we do take scripture as strictly literal...

an example of what i believe champ was getting at is for example:

drinking- some christians wiil tell you that any consumption of alcahol is a sin others will tell you that it is the getting drunk that is the sin.

smoking- the bible says nothing about it specifically but some will tell you because "your body is a temple" you shouldn't pollute it. this could go the same for caffine or candy or poly-unsaturated fats...i suppose.

some have a thing about cutting hair, wearing dresses that are shorter than ankle length, head covering, tongue-speaking, snake-handling, etc.

behavior i think is one of the most controversial aspects of christian life because we live in such a vastly different time then when the scriptures were written. is it ok to go to a bar? if so is it ok to have a drink in that bar? ect, ect.