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I see what you're saying Sicholas, but I get weary of that argument. Perhaps it's because I teach Junior high kids who are constantly trying to figure out where the line is. I think we get into trouble when we start nitpicking. The legalistic attitude that we all take at some point or another can be harmful to the faith. I'm not ragging on your thoughts in particular. We all have them and live by them from time to time, but ultimately, we're missing the point.
Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle
Here's an interesting article.
Top Ten Reasons For Not Being a Christian
Over the course of my ministry, I've pretty much heard all the objections to Christianity the world has to offer. Here are what I would consider the "Top 10 Objections" to becoming a Christian.
1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good works is still a bribe.
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than some, but worse than others.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key ingredient to a successful marriage.
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender." Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven. Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness – and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ, it's because he did not want to know the true God.
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a "Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above, he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually, he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased with His own blood.
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now – receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go to be with God forever.
Email Author: Hal Lindsey
Valid points. Even though the culture has changed, the Bible's message has stayed the same. The difficulty is each individual translating the scriptures and applying them to everyday life in the year 2006.Originally Posted by sik-m-boi
The fact that we (including myself) see applying scripture to everyday life in 2006 as difficult is where our problems are.
Don't you think the same discussions occured in the '50s? mid 1800s? 100AD? We have a great guide to go by. Only the world can pick it apart by taking and leaving what is not currently PC. As Christians, we are no longer of this world.
they aren't my thoughts, they are peoples' perceptions of what a christian's behavior look like. i'm not saying that anyone should or shouldn't do anything. if you are well-grounded and God-centered them i don't see the need for the weight of dogma.
i'm not nitpicking just stating that we all as christians have different beliefs and practice them differently and most of those practices line up with scripture. but we take those little things and say, "well, he drinks so he must not have Jesus," or "she's in a sorority she must be a sinner." and that might line up fine with their beliefs it says nowhere in the bible that we shouldn't drink or be members of social clubs...but you know as well as i do some of those folks in the bcm where we were both council members would have said stuff like that and several would have thought it, because it's those things don't line up with their picture of a christian. and i'm not trying to talk bad about people who think that i'm just trying to illustrate that there are certain aspects of behavior that are not uniform to all christians.
i'm not trying to be confrontational: but what about head coverings? it says in 1 corinthians that any praying/prophesizing woman should have her head covered if she doesn't she should have her hair shaved off. there are no women who cover their heads at my church. are they going against God's will or just taking into account that the scriptures were written 2000 years ago and it is no longer socially unacceptable for women to have uncovered heads and short hair?
All right. Done with my meeting so here I go. Hope I don't offend too many people with my response, but what the heck! I'll start by saying that I love these kinds of discussions. Not because I like to argue about it, but because I believe we must ALL know WHAT we believe and WHY we believe it. The WHY is something I have really been focusing on in recent months. For example, we say that the Bible is the divine word of God and we believe it. WHY? Just because it says so? Well, that is PART of it, but then how do you answer apparent discrepencies (note that I didn't say there WERE any) is the Bible? Enough digression!
First, on the Levitical Law. I do not argue that there is a clean cut definition saying this law is ceremonial (worship) and this one is moral. The intent of the WHOLE law was to point to Jesus. But when we say that we are no longer bound by the Law, we DO have to understand what is meant by that. God does not intend for us to live our lives according to a checklist or rulebook. Jesus summed up the Law for us in this . . .
"Love the Lord your God with all your hear and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
Paul was very clear to the church in Galatia. It isn't about following the Law which saves you, it's about your faith.
Galatians 3:23-25 "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law"
In fact, there IS a very troubling verse in there for those who try to be justified by the Law:
Galatians 5:1-4 "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yaoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselved be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again, I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace"
I'm not even going to try to touch that last part, but the message is clear. Live the INTENT of the Law, as given by Jesus, but don't rest upon the literal laws and regulations that were imposed by it. Remember, the curtain was torn when Jesus died on the cross, symbolic of the abolishment of the ceremonial law which said, in part, that only the Levites could enter the Holy of Holies.
Now, on works. There was a reason why I quoted the verse in Ephesians I did. It is because it is the following verse of the one which has already been quoted in this thread.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Now to get to Dirty's comment, "In order to have Him as our Savior, we must behave as He requires us."
I take issue with this. In order to have Him as our Savior, we must CHOOSE to accept His sacrifice on the cross and grant him Lordship over our lives. (Accept we are sinners, Believe He died for our sins, Commit our lives to Him) Period. End of Story. Nothing else required.
The behavior part comes in how our commitment affects our lives and the quality of our lives. God has good works planned out for you. CHOOSE to do them. God has people for you to reach. CHOOSE to reach out to them. Do these things and forget about the pleasures of your flesh and what is comfortable, and God will give you more than you could ever expect.
Christians who do not live their life according to this are in constant battle and are held in bondage. They never appreciate or feel the freedom we have when we walk according to God's plan.
Now for the walk of others. There was a DC Talk song that started with the quote "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
That's a great quote because what it tells me is that yes, I'm going to stumble and fail and not live the perfect life. That doesn't make me no be a follower of Christ or "saved". But my actions DO affect those around me, ESPECIALLY unbelievers. When I fail, I am not an effective witness of Christ. It is HIM I have let down.
All for now. My hand is tired!
Chris
The Book of Revelation -
He felt it served no purpose and only added confusion -
''Don't be a bad dagh..."
From the website gotquestions.org. I think this does a good job of using scriptures to explain Christians.
Question: "What is a Christian?"
Answer: Webster’s Dictionary defines a Christian as “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teaching of Jesus.” While this is a good starting point in understanding what a Christian is, like many secular definitions, it falls somewhat short of really communicating the biblical truth of what it means to be a Christian.
The word Christian is used three times in New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. It was originally used by the unsaved people of Antioch as a kind of contemptuous nickname used to make fun of the Christians. It literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or an “adherent or follower of Christ,” which is very similar to the way Webster’s Dictionary defines it.
Unfortunately over time, the word "Christian" has lost a great deal of it significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values instead of a true born again follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who don’t believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a "Christian" nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. As one evangelist once said, “Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes one an automobile.” Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church cannot make you a Christian.
The Bible teaches us that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 tells us that it is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born-again by God (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” A true Christian is someone who has repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone. Their trust is not in following a religion or a set of moral codes, or a list of do’s and don’ts.
A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10).
And, in the end, our opinions matter zero. If I say someone isn't a Christian because they have a drink, that's my sin. Are we talking about true christianity or are we talking about perception? I understand that perception is something we have to deal with, but flawed perception can't be part of a belief system I regard as true.
Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle
johnny-
i don't know if we are talking about the same thing here.
champ said that there is controversy over what is "christian behavior." someone (sorry i cant remember who) rebutted, saying that behavior was something that was not debateable. i was merely illustrating that different people define "christian behavior" differently. i was not, and am not presently, advocating one set over another just that variations exist and most have some level of biblical backing. that's it.
i guess to address what you are talking about, we are talking about perception OF christianity. and i don't think that different perceptions necessarily mean that one is wrong (or flawed) if i believed that then i would have to believe that one denomination was correct and all others were wrong OR that non were right because i differ in some respect to all of them.
it's this kind of stuff that makes me happy that salvation is by grace.
I just read through everything, but don't have time to post much. I will state that I agree with this. I will try to post more tomorrow.johnny-
i don't know if we are talking about the same thing here.
champ said that there is controversy over what is "christian behavior." someone (sorry i cant remember who) rebutted, saying that behavior was something that was not debateable. i was merely illustrating that different people define "christian behavior" differently. i was not, and am not presently, advocating one set over another just that variations exist and most have some level of biblical backing. that's it.
i guess to address what you are talking about, we are talking about perception OF christianity. and i don't think that different perceptions necessarily mean that one is wrong (or flawed) if i believed that then i would have to believe that one denomination was correct and all others were wrong OR that non were right because i differ in some respect to all of them.
it's this kind of stuff that makes me happy that salvation is by grace.
Yeah, I guess I was getting my arguments mixed up. There are different perceptions of what is "Christian Behavior." I do believe that there is an absolute right and an absolute wrong. I believe that often times we try and bend or mold the scripture to fit our personal preferences. I'll give you an example. What would happen if your local pastor came up to the pulpit drunk? Fired. How about if he came up with a roach in his mouth? Fired. What if he had an issue of Hustler under his arm? Fired. What if he was carrying 200 extra pounds? Well, that's all good. I know that it's not always as cut and dry as that, but I think we intentionally blur the line at times...I know I do. I'll wait for Champs reply.johnny-
i don't know if we are talking about the same thing here.
champ said that there is controversy over what is "christian behavior." someone (sorry i cant remember who) rebutted, saying that behavior was something that was not debateable. i was merely illustrating that different people define "christian behavior" differently. i was not, and am not presently, advocating one set over another just that variations exist and most have some level of biblical backing. that's it.
i guess to address what you are talking about, we are talking about perception OF christianity. and i don't think that different perceptions necessarily mean that one is wrong (or flawed) if i believed that then i would have to believe that one denomination was correct and all others were wrong OR that non were right because i differ in some respect to all of them.
it's this kind of stuff that makes me happy that salvation is by grace.
Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle
I guess I will reply very quickly, but I am going to have some angry people sitting at Bruno's waiting for me.
I agree with you to a point. There is a right and wrong as defined by Christ. However, there REALLY are different interpretations of what that right and wrong are. Yes, you can state that the Bible has not changed, only people have changed. That is all well and good, but how do you explain how someone in Rome defines things differently than you do? I am talking about different cultures, different churches, different regions, etc. There are some things that are pretty constant between all of them, but there are other things that some groups define differently.
This is the point that we have arrived at other times in this discussion. Some of you are fundamentalists and believe that it is all black and white. Some others of us do not believe it is that simple. I would NEVER EVER EVER say that my way is right and yours is wrong (unless it is just too obvious
My faith in Jesus is a constant, but I believe I have to grow in understanding what things mean. The day I look at things as black and white is the day that I lose my ability to think and I think God wants us to grow and think. There were a bunch of Christians that thought of things in black and white during the inquisition too. :icon_wink
i think i've already recommended this book, but if i have not, you guys (you in particular champ) would enjoy reading "velvet elvis" by rob bell.
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