The Da Vinci Code

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Many idiot muslims strap on suicide vests and die for Allah every day in the middle East. Babylonians offered themselves as human sacrifices to appease their Gods. Aztecs.....The list could go on.

The Muslim killers go to their death due to hate in their heart for others. Christians were willing to die for Christ and their beliefs out of love. One of the big differences in my mind.

Tyler, you forgot to add Mary Magadalene to list that escaped death. She was considered a disciple by some and according to the RC church, she escaped to the South of France.

True on first point. OK...maybe right but I doubt on second.

[TechDawgFan]

Not trying to take away from your message, Tyler, because you make a good point. However, study history and even modern history. Christians did not create the matyr system nor were they the first ones persecuted for their belief system. History has a bloody past and much of that can be traced back to certain Gods and the powerful influence that control people's minds.

Many idiot muslims strap on suicide vests and die for Allah every day in the middle East. Babylonians offered themselves as human sacrifices to appease their Gods. Aztecs.....The list could go on.

Tyler, you forgot to add Mary Magadalene to list that escaped death. She was considered a disciple by some and according to the RC church, she escaped to the South of France.

One distinct difference is that the disciples believed what they believed because they were first hand witnesses of Jesus. Many of the ones you mentioned have been taught what to believe by others. They chose martyerdom not because of what they were told by others but because of what they believed having witnessed it themselves.

Chris

[Dawgbitten]

You guys are forgetting the betrayal and denial of two of the disciples? I wouldn't exactly call that "stepping up to the death plate" for their belief in the saviour. How do we know if any of these martyred disciples were not begging for their lives or denying their beliefs when they died?

[dhussdawg]

You guys are forgetting the betrayal and denial of two of the disciples? I wouldn't exactly call that "stepping up to the death plate" for their belief in the saviour. How do we know if any of these martyred disciples were not begging for their lives or denying their beliefs when they died?

I am failing to understand your points with all of this what if this happened and we dont know this or that. How do we know if they didnt beg for their lives? I dont know, but there are no accounts of them doing it. So, we can make up anything we thought they did. They might have done three cartwheels and yelled "hallelujah, I am dying for Jesus". They could have danced a little jig, who knows? Why speculate on something we have no idea about?

[Dawgbitten]

My point is valid. TDF says they chose Martyrdom when the Bible clearly states that one denied him while the other betrayed him. One even doubted his reserection. Clearly three of the 13 were not so strong in their beliefs.

[TechDawgFan]

Yes, Peter denied him 3 times. But what a change there was! It's too long to reproduce, but go to www.biblegateway.com and look up Acts 2:14-39. Yes, the one who wouldn't even acknowledge Jesus to a servant girl now stands before crowds and even the Sanhedrin declaring that Jesus is the Messiah!

I'm not going to get into the whole Judas issue. I'll just say that Judas' role was prophesied years before he was even born.

Thomas doubted then placed his fingers in the wounds on his hands and side. He wanted to find the truth. But so many look over Thomas once he was presented with the answers to his questions, they cling to the fact that he doubted. But read on, "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

Chris

[firedog]

Yes, Peter denied him 3 times. But what a change there was! It's too long to reproduce, but go to www.biblegateway.com and look up Acts 2:14-39. Yes, the one who wouldn't even acknowledge Jesus to a servant girl now stands before crowds and even the Sanhedrin declaring that Jesus is the Messiah!

I'm not going to get into the whole Judas issue. I'll just say that Judas' role was prophesied years before he was even born.

Thomas doubted then placed his fingers in the wounds on his hands and side. He wanted to find the truth. But so many look over Thomas once he was presented with the answers to his questions, they cling to the fact that he doubted. But read on, "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

Chris

Didn't Jesus prophesize this also?

[atobulldog]

Another explaination could be that God crafted it this way so that the future generations could believe as well having heard these doubts and denials. Things happen for a reason.

As for Judas, the one who betrayed Jesus, the Gospel of Mark says that Judas says in remorse "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood" It follows by saying threw back the bribe money and hanged himself. That seems to me to be taking responsiblity for his actions in his own way and not denying his beliefs.

[TechDawgFan]

Yeah, he did.

[dhussdawg]

My point is valid. TDF says they chose Martyrdom when the Bible clearly states that one denied him while the other betrayed him. One even doubted his reserection. Clearly three of the 13 were not so strong in their beliefs.

Well, taking 3 of the 13 that doubted or betrayed at one point in their lives and speculating that they begged for their lives in the end is not valid. Nor is it valid to base off that invalidated assumption that all 13 could have begged for their lives. You are just speculating which, as I said, we can all do. Peter doubted three times and probably denied him some other times, but for the most part, he followed Jesus and proclaimed him King after Jesus died. So, if I were to weigh moments of denial against years and years of proclaiming Jesus King, I would come to the conclusion that he was proclaiming Jesus as Lord even when he was martyred.

[TechDawgMc]

My point is valid. TDF says they chose Martyrdom when the Bible clearly states that one denied him while the other betrayed him. One even doubted his reserection. Clearly three of the 13 were not so strong in their beliefs.

Since Peter and Thomas eventually died for their beliefs, your argument doesn't really work as a response to the "why would they die for a lie" argument. And in both cases you're talking about things that happened before they became convinced of the resurrection. None of them ever backed down after the resurrection -- which is the main argument.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Since Peter and Thomas eventually died for their beliefs, your argument doesn't really work as a response to the "why would they die for a lie" argument. And in both cases you're talking about things that happened before they became convinced of the resurrection. None of them ever backed down after the resurrection -- which is the main argument.

Exactly. Thanks TechDawgMc.

[Dawgbitten]

Since Peter and Thomas eventually died for their beliefs, your argument doesn't really work as a response to the "why would they die for a lie" argument. And in both cases you're talking about things that happened before they became convinced of the resurrection. None of them ever backed down after the resurrection -- which is the main argument.

Fair enough.

[sik-m-boi]

so...

this is a bit off-subject. but did you guys see "the gospel of judas" or read the translation of the book that came out about a month ago? the documentary was on natl geographic channel a month or so ago...i have it tivo-ed and can burn a dvd for anybody who is interested. it's very interesting (and very gnostic).

btw...saw the movie this weekend and have determined that ron howard is one of the most talented directors of our age...you have to be extremely talented to make an entertaining page-turner like the the "davinci code" into one of the most boring movies i have ever seen!

[bluecrew]

There is a national geographic channel?