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Thread: New York Times - traitors?

  1. #16
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg
    Don't try to compare spying on American citizens with combat MILITARY operations because they are not the same.

    The reason why NY Times disclosed this information is because the Bush Administration did not follow the established procedure in conducting intelligence operations WITHIN the USA.
    The reason the NYT disclosed this information is because they hate Bush. These were not warrantless searches. The Times is going to have a hard time two-stepping around this one. It is hilarious how the left-leaning main stream press is bringing themselves down over their hatred for Bush. First Rather, now the Times.

  2. #17
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerdawg
    You make me laugh. You will support that liberal rag no matter what they do. There are at least five terroist who did not know, including Riduan Isamuddin, "better known as Hambali, believed to be the mastermind of the 2002 bombing of a Bali resort, several officials said.The Swift data identified a previously unknown figure in Southeast Asia who had financial dealings with a person suspected of being a member of Al Qaeda; that link helped locate Hambali in Thailand in 2003; and Mohammed Mansour Jabarah, who helped Hambali plan the Bali nightclub bombing in 2002."

    Go back and tell sis about this.

    Thanks again to Patterico's Pontifications for covering this so well. http://patterico.com/2006/07/03/4818...ce-monitoring/

    The quotes above came from that blog.
    Supposedly, they caught a handful of terrorists using the Swift program, but the really Big Fish were moving hundreds of millions of $$$$ around. International organized crime was hit hard by the FBI going over these records of money transfers without judical authorization to do so.

    Remember, soonerdawg, our gov't is made of three separate BUT equal branches. Just because the Executive branch classifies something as SECRET doesn't make it legal.

  3. #18
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerdawg
    The reason the NYT disclosed this information is because they hate Bush. These were not warrantless searches. The Times is going to have a hard time two-stepping around this one. It is hilarious how the left-leaning main stream press is bringing themselves down over their hatred for Bush. First Rather, now the Times.
    Hate the sin, not the sinner.

  4. #19
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg
    So according to your line of thinking had a reporter gotten wind of the D Day invasion and disclosed it to the public as "completely and accurately as possible" it would have been just fine.
    July 2, 2006
    The Public Editor
    Secrecy, Security, the President and the Press

    By BYRON CALAME
    THE Bush administration's unusually harsh attacks on The New York Times for exposing a secret banking-data surveillance program have turned a glaring spotlight on the paper's decision to publish the article.

    President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Republican legislators have singled out The Times in recent days for disclosing the counterterrorism program, even though The Los Angeles Times and The Wall Street Journal published articles the same day. Senator Jim Bunning of Kentucky called on the attorney general to investigate The New York Times for treason.

    The flood of reader e-mails reacting to the June 23 article has left hundreds of messages in various newsroom in-boxes at The Times. Roughly 1,000 e-mails have come to me, about 85 percent of them critical of the decision to publish the story and a large fraction venomous. It was time to take a close look at the handling of the article in search of answers.

    My close look convinced me that Bill Keller, the executive editor, was correct in deciding that Times readers deserved to read about the banking-data surveillance program. And the growing indications that this and other financial monitoring operations were hardly a secret to the terrorist world minimizes the possibility that the article made America less safe.

    The banking-data surveillance program, set up in 2001, is run out of the Central Intelligence Agency and overseen by the Treasury Department. It provided access to records of transactions routed through a Belgian consortium by banks and financial institutions around the world. More than 11 million transactions involving about $6 trillion are routed daily through the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, or Swift.

    So what were the most solid reasons to publish the story?

    There was a significant question as to how secret the program was after five years. "Hundreds, if not thousands, of people know about this," Mr. Keller said he was told by an official who talked to him on condition of anonymity. The 25 bankers from numerous nations on the Swift board of directors, and their predecessors going back to 2001, knew about the arrangement. So did some consortium executives and staff members — a group that probably expanded during this period. Starting in 2003, Swift representatives had to be stationed alongside any government intelligence official searching the data.

    Further support for the conclusion that the Swift program hasn't remained totally hidden from terrorists, or anyone else, emerged last week. A former State Department official who has served on a United Nations counterterrorism group pointed to a 2002 United Nations report noting that the United States was monitoring international financial transactions. Swift and similar organizations were mentioned in the publicly available report, although there were no details. "The United States has begun to apply new monitoring techniques to spot and verify suspicious transactions," the report noted.

    The Times's June 23 article "awoke the general public" to the Swift program and "in that sense, it was truly new news," Victor Comras, the former State Department official, wrote on The Counterterrorism Blog last week. "But," he added, "the information was fairly well known by terrorism financing experts back in 2002."

    The administration has sometimes invited press attention to its effort to track terrorist financing. In September 2003, Treasury Secretary John W. Snow and a team of his aides took reporters from The Times and other papers on a six-day tour on a military aircraft "to show off the department's efforts," Mr. Keller and Dean Baquet, the editor of The Los Angeles Times, noted in a joint Op-Ed commentary that appeared yesterday. The aides "discussed many sensitive details of their monitoring efforts, hoping they would appear in print and demonstrate the administration's relentlessness against the terrorist threat," according to the two editors.

    Another reason Times editors were right to proceed with the 3,550-word Swift story was the skimpy Congressional oversight of the program. Secrecy is vital for intelligence and national security programs, but so is oversight by the courts or elected legislators. The Swift program, however, doesn't seem to have any specific Congressional approval or formal authorization. The Treasury Department has not provided a list of who in Congress was informed, or when, The Times has reported.

    Eric Lichtblau, one of the two reporters who wrote the Swift story, told me the administration briefed a limited number of Congressional leaders — apparently from both parties, but not the full intelligence or banking committees — toward the beginning of the program. It wasn't until the Treasury Department learned that The Times was working on the story, Mr. Lichtblau said, that the administration apparently briefed all members of the intelligence committees. Whether there are official standards established for the Swift program or not, the weak Congressional oversight over the past five years deserved public scrutiny.

    Temporary emergency measures cloaked in government secrecy can too easily become permanent shortcuts. That's why oversight is important. It is also a reason to publish the article. The reservations expressed by some of the 20 current and former government officials and industry executives who were disturbed enough to talk to The Times were based on this concern: "What they viewed as an urgent, temporary measure had become permanent nearly five years later without specific Congressional approval or formal authorization," in the words of the article.

    The most fundamental reason for publishing the article, of course, was the obligation of a free press to monitor government and other powerful institutions in our society. "Our default position — our job — is to publish information if we are convinced it is fair and accurate," Mr. Keller wrote in a letter to readers posted online last weekend, "and our biggest failures have generally been when we failed to dig deep enough or to report fully enough." He added:

    "The question we start with as journalists is not 'why publish?' but 'why would we withhold information of significance?' We have sometimes done so, holding stories or editing out details that could serve those hostile to the U.S. But we need a compelling reason to do so."

    What about the administration's reasons for demanding that The Times not publish?

    Mr. Keller said the "central argument" senior officials gave against publishing the Swift article was that international bankers would stop cooperating. In his weekend letter, he cited two reasons that argument didn't stop him from publishing the story: First, the consortium provides data to comply with administrative subpoenas issued by the Treasury Department — a legal obligation. "Second, if, as the administration says, the program is legal, highly effective, and well protected against invasion of privacy, the bankers should have little trouble defending it." So far, Swift hasn't publicly indicated any intention to stop cooperating.

    For me, the most substantial argument against running the story was the acknowledgment that the Swift program was letter-of-the-law legal, had helped catch some terrorists and had a clean record on privacy abuse. But full-bore oversight would have had to be part of that picture to make a convincing case that the program deserved to continue in secrecy, with its access to Swift's mother lode of financial data.

    Often obscured in the past week's hot rhetoric over The Times's decision to publish the Swift article were the occasions when the paper's editors have chosen to hold or modify a story when warned by government officials that lives or national security might be endangered. "Few people are aware when we decide to hold an article," noted Mr. Keller and Mr. Baquet in their joint commentary. Apart from The Times's decision to hold the December story about the National Security Agency's warrantless eavesdropping for more than a year, it turns out the paper has decided not to publish stories that "might have jeopardized efforts to protect vulnerable stockpiles of nuclear material," according to the joint commentary. The Times has also held stories about "highly sensitive counterterrorism initiatives that are still in operation," the Op-Ed piece noted.

    "There is no magic formula, no neat metric for either the public's interest or the dangers of publishing sensitive information," the two editors concluded. "We make our best judgment."

    The best judgment of these two editors served their readers well in the case of the Swift story. In the face of intense administration pressure in a country that's unusually polarized politically, they correctly decided to make sure their readers were informed about the banking-data surveillance.

  5. #20
    Champ Soonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond reputeSoonerdawg has a reputation beyond repute Soonerdawg's Avatar
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg
    Remember, soonerdawg, our gov't is made of three separate BUT equal branches. Just because the Executive branch classifies something as SECRET doesn't make it legal.
    It was legal. It was secret. And the NYT was wrong to disclose it.

    Also, the judicial branch signed off on this one.

    Before the NYT went with the story, they knew warrants were issued, they knew the program had bagged some bad guys in the past, and they were told that the program was being usd in open cases.

    The long and short of it is, that in their hate for Bush and their desire to influence the next election, the NYT betrayed their country.

    It looks as though they are boxed in here.

  6. #21
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg
    July 2, 2006
    The Public Editor
    Secrecy, Security, the President and the Press

    By BYRON CALAME
    THE Bush administration's unusually harsh attacks on The New York Times for exposing a secret banking-data surveillance program have turned a glaring spotlight on the paper's decision to publish the article.

    President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Republican legislators have singled out The Times in recent days for disclosing the counterterrorism program, even though The Los Angeles Times and The Wall Street Journal published articles the same day. Senator Jim Bunning of Kentucky called on the attorney general to investigate The New York Times for treason.

    The flood of reader e-mails reacting to the June 23 article has left hundreds of messages in various newsroom in-boxes at The Times. Roughly 1,000 e-mails have come to me, about 85 percent of them critical of the decision to publish the story and a large fraction venomous. It was time to take a close look at the handling of the article in search of answers.

    My close look convinced me that Bill Keller, the executive editor, was correct in deciding that Times readers deserved to read about the banking-data surveillance program. And the growing indications that this and other financial monitoring operations were hardly a secret to the terrorist world minimizes the possibility that the article made America less safe.

    The banking-data surveillance program, set up in 2001, is run out of the Central Intelligence Agency and overseen by the Treasury Department. It provided access to records of transactions routed through a Belgian consortium by banks and financial institutions around the world. More than 11 million transactions involving about $6 trillion are routed daily through the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, or Swift.

    So what were the most solid reasons to publish the story?

    There was a significant question as to how secret the program was after five years. "Hundreds, if not thousands, of people know about this," Mr. Keller said he was told by an official who talked to him on condition of anonymity. The 25 bankers from numerous nations on the Swift board of directors, and their predecessors going back to 2001, knew about the arrangement. So did some consortium executives and staff members — a group that probably expanded during this period. Starting in 2003, Swift representatives had to be stationed alongside any government intelligence official searching the data.

    Further support for the conclusion that the Swift program hasn't remained totally hidden from terrorists, or anyone else, emerged last week. A former State Department official who has served on a United Nations counterterrorism group pointed to a 2002 United Nations report noting that the United States was monitoring international financial transactions. Swift and similar organizations were mentioned in the publicly available report, although there were no details. "The United States has begun to apply new monitoring techniques to spot and verify suspicious transactions," the report noted.

    The Times's June 23 article "awoke the general public" to the Swift program and "in that sense, it was truly new news," Victor Comras, the former State Department official, wrote on The Counterterrorism Blog last week. "But," he added, "the information was fairly well known by terrorism financing experts back in 2002."

    The administration has sometimes invited press attention to its effort to track terrorist financing. In September 2003, Treasury Secretary John W. Snow and a team of his aides took reporters from The Times and other papers on a six-day tour on a military aircraft "to show off the department's efforts," Mr. Keller and Dean Baquet, the editor of The Los Angeles Times, noted in a joint Op-Ed commentary that appeared yesterday. The aides "discussed many sensitive details of their monitoring efforts, hoping they would appear in print and demonstrate the administration's relentlessness against the terrorist threat," according to the two editors.

    Another reason Times editors were right to proceed with the 3,550-word Swift story was the skimpy Congressional oversight of the program. Secrecy is vital for intelligence and national security programs, but so is oversight by the courts or elected legislators. The Swift program, however, doesn't seem to have any specific Congressional approval or formal authorization. The Treasury Department has not provided a list of who in Congress was informed, or when, The Times has reported.

    Eric Lichtblau, one of the two reporters who wrote the Swift story, told me the administration briefed a limited number of Congressional leaders — apparently from both parties, but not the full intelligence or banking committees — toward the beginning of the program. It wasn't until the Treasury Department learned that The Times was working on the story, Mr. Lichtblau said, that the administration apparently briefed all members of the intelligence committees. Whether there are official standards established for the Swift program or not, the weak Congressional oversight over the past five years deserved public scrutiny.

    Temporary emergency measures cloaked in government secrecy can too easily become permanent shortcuts. That's why oversight is important. It is also a reason to publish the article. The reservations expressed by some of the 20 current and former government officials and industry executives who were disturbed enough to talk to The Times were based on this concern: "What they viewed as an urgent, temporary measure had become permanent nearly five years later without specific Congressional approval or formal authorization," in the words of the article.

    The most fundamental reason for publishing the article, of course, was the obligation of a free press to monitor government and other powerful institutions in our society. "Our default position — our job — is to publish information if we are convinced it is fair and accurate," Mr. Keller wrote in a letter to readers posted online last weekend, "and our biggest failures have generally been when we failed to dig deep enough or to report fully enough." He added:

    "The question we start with as journalists is not 'why publish?' but 'why would we withhold information of significance?' We have sometimes done so, holding stories or editing out details that could serve those hostile to the U.S. But we need a compelling reason to do so."

    What about the administration's reasons for demanding that The Times not publish?

    Mr. Keller said the "central argument" senior officials gave against publishing the Swift article was that international bankers would stop cooperating. In his weekend letter, he cited two reasons that argument didn't stop him from publishing the story: First, the consortium provides data to comply with administrative subpoenas issued by the Treasury Department — a legal obligation. "Second, if, as the administration says, the program is legal, highly effective, and well protected against invasion of privacy, the bankers should have little trouble defending it." So far, Swift hasn't publicly indicated any intention to stop cooperating.

    For me, the most substantial argument against running the story was the acknowledgment that the Swift program was letter-of-the-law legal, had helped catch some terrorists and had a clean record on privacy abuse. But full-bore oversight would have had to be part of that picture to make a convincing case that the program deserved to continue in secrecy, with its access to Swift's mother lode of financial data.

    Often obscured in the past week's hot rhetoric over The Times's decision to publish the Swift article were the occasions when the paper's editors have chosen to hold or modify a story when warned by government officials that lives or national security might be endangered. "Few people are aware when we decide to hold an article," noted Mr. Keller and Mr. Baquet in their joint commentary. Apart from The Times's decision to hold the December story about the National Security Agency's warrantless eavesdropping for more than a year, it turns out the paper has decided not to publish stories that "might have jeopardized efforts to protect vulnerable stockpiles of nuclear material," according to the joint commentary. The Times has also held stories about "highly sensitive counterterrorism initiatives that are still in operation," the Op-Ed piece noted.

    "There is no magic formula, no neat metric for either the public's interest or the dangers of publishing sensitive information," the two editors concluded. "We make our best judgment."

    The best judgment of these two editors served their readers well in the case of the Swift story. In the face of intense administration pressure in a country that's unusually polarized politically, they correctly decided to make sure their readers were informed about the banking-data surveillance.
    This is old stuff here. You need to get with the program. Even the NYT has abandoned these arguments. In other words, you are razzling when the NYT is now dazzling.

    One really funny thing coming out of all of this was when the NYT was still trying to say this was no secret, despite the fact the headline and numerous time in the article the NYT said it was secret, it turns out that the author of the story had written a previous story where it was obvious he did not know about the program.

    I am sorry Salty. I know that the NYT is a very sentimental institution to you. This has to be very painful to see this institution lose its credibility and relevance right before your eyes. First, you lose Rather, and now you are losing the NYT. It is really too much for a liberal to take in such a short period of time.

  7. #22
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg
    Has any proof been given that the terrorists actually did know about this other than someone saying they did? Has this program been accomplishing what it was set up to do? All I saw in that article is that the information was there and public for the terrorists to know about but that they actually didn't know about it. Now, I understand that pretty much does away with the secrecy of the program, but sometimes some common sense must be used. Just because somebody might know, doesn't mean they do know.
    This is what we know so far. At least two terrorist did not know were nabbed using information from the SWIFT program. They were the mastermind of the Bali bombing and one of his right hand men. I also read about three others, but I did not know who they were, so their significance meant nothing to me. If I remember correctly it involved some Canadian groups. We also know that there were some open cases, which obviously cannot be disclosed because they are still open, who did not know. When the NYT article came out, they changed their method of operation. That is where the damage was done.

  8. #23
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    NYT was wrong. Period. If the program is not found illegal, then they were if nothing else morally wrong for exposing it.

  9. #24
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Lt. Tom Cotton writes this morning from Baghdad with a word for the New York Times:

    Dear Messrs. Keller, Lichtblau & Risen:

    Congratulations on disclosing our government's highly classified anti-terrorist-financing program (June 23). I apologize for not writing sooner. But I am a lieutenant in the United States Army and I spent the last four days patrolling one of the more dangerous areas in Iraq. (Alas, operational security and common sense prevent me from even revealing this unclassified location in a private medium like email.)

    Unfortunately, as I supervised my soldiers late one night, I heard a booming explosion several miles away. I learned a few hours later that a powerful roadside bomb killed one soldier and severely injured another from my 130-man company. I deeply hope that we can find and kill or capture the terrorists responsible for that bomb. But, of course, these terrorists do not spring from the soil like Plato's guardians. No, they require financing to obtain mortars and artillery shells, priming explosives, wiring and circuitry, not to mention for training and payments to locals willing to emplace bombs in exchange for a few months' salary. As your story states, the program was legal, briefed to Congress, supported in the government and financial industry, and very successful.

    Not anymore. You may think you have done a public service, but you have gravely endangered the lives of my soldiers and all other soldiers and innocent Iraqis here. Next time I hear that familiar explosion — or next time I feel it — I will wonder whether we could have stopped that bomb had you not instructed terrorists how to evade our financial surveillance.

    And, by the way, having graduated from Harvard Law and practiced with a federal appellate judge and two Washington law firms before becoming an infantry officer, I am well-versed in the espionage laws relevant to this story and others — laws you have plainly violated. I hope that my colleagues at the Department of Justice match the courage of my soldiers here and prosecute you and your newspaper to the fullest extent of the law. By the time we return home, maybe you will be in your rightful place: not at the Pulitzer announcements, but behind bars.

    Very truly yours,

    Tom Cotton
    Baghdad, Iraq

  10. #25
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    What Lt. Cotton didn't explain in his letter is that islamic terrorists normally don't use Citicorp or the Bank of England to transfer money around, especially large sums like $10 million. They use Moslem money traders who know each other and whose word is as good as gold. They communicate with encrypted telelex or private courier or the old fashion telephone using code words. in fact, the plain problem US Intelligence has in Iraq is the money trail for the Iraqi insurgents. They are spedning probably a $100 million a year to fight and our $44 billion a year CIA can't get anywhere with it.

    You guys don't have a clue about the real world. Like I said, the SWIFT program caught a lot of organized crime money but has come up practically empty on the Iraqi insurgents or moslem terrorists.

    Looks like Lt. Cotton is planning on being a right-wing politican.

    As far as the NYT is concerned, I doubt that it will go anywhere since the SWIFT program was hardly a secret after 5 years.

  11. #26
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    The only thing we know for sure is that the Iraqi insurgents have access to very large sums of money which appears to have no limit in amount or time.

  12. #27
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by duckbillplatty
    NYT was wrong. Period. If the program is not found illegal, then they were if nothing else morally wrong for exposing it.
    So? Cancel your subscription if you don't like their policies.

  13. #28
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Salty

    You would defend the devil if he said he was a liberal and the republicans were after him! You are loosing your credibility trying to defend these guys. They were wrong and should do the time!
    WWDog
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  14. #29
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg
    What Lt. Cotton didn't explain in his letter is that islamic terrorists normally don't use Citicorp or the Bank of England to transfer money around, especially large sums like $10 million. They use Moslem money traders who know each other and whose word is as good as gold. They communicate with encrypted telelex or private courier or the old fashion telephone using code words. in fact, the plain problem US Intelligence has in Iraq is the money trail for the Iraqi insurgents. They are spedning probably a $100 million a year to fight and our $44 billion a year CIA can't get anywhere with it.

    You guys don't have a clue about the real world. Like I said, the SWIFT program caught a lot of organized crime money but has come up practically empty on the Iraqi insurgents or moslem terrorists.

    Looks like Lt. Cotton is planning on being a right-wing politican.

    As far as the NYT is concerned, I doubt that it will go anywhere since the SWIFT program was hardly a secret after 5 years.
    No, Salty, it is not us who is oblivious to the real world. It is you that doesn't have a clue about the SWIFT program. No matter how many times you say the SWIFT program was not working, you are flat out wrong on this one. Every time you say it only was working against the mafia, you are wrong. Your sister-in-law apparently didn't work in Brussels. They were bagging bad guys in the form of terrorist with this program, and the key was the terrorist did not know the banks were coorperating in Brussels. You pals at the NYT spilled the beans and caused us to lose the trail of some terrorist in open cases.

    Your last statement is nothing but a regurgitation of the NYT talking points. SWIFT was a secret, the NYT headline said it was a secret, the body of the article repeatedly said it was a secret and terrorist were being caught with it, so they were not in on the secret. Again, the terrorist may have know we were tracking in the US. The terrorist had no idea Brussels was coorperating until the NYT spilled the beans.

    The problem with the SWIFT issue is, there are too many facts to refute your liberal rag. Go back to arguing crap that is your opinion only. Your losing what little credibility you had.

  15. #30
    Champ CARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond reputeCARTEK has a reputation beyond repute CARTEK's Avatar
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    Re: New York Times - traitors?

    I said it earlier and will say it again: salty is a piece of human waste that joined BB&B to voice his political views, which are based on kissing the arse of his beloved Saint Clinton. He has no affiliation with TECH and rarely posts anything but his political blather.

    In short, the good Lord mess up a good prick when He put ears on salty!
    I'm an asshole! What's your excuse?

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