Stem Cell Veto...

[SDDawg]

Here's an article from the Boston Globe citing some of the research going on elsewhere and explaining why the same research can't happen in the US. It's from 2004 but still very relevant:

http://www.boston.com/news/science/a...earch_lagging/

And exerpts:
In the United Kingdom, as in the United States, there has been contentious public debate over embryonic cell research, but the government has designed a system of strict oversight. With the opening last week of the new UK Stem Cell Bank north of London, funded by the government at $4.6 million over three years, that country is taking the kind of international leadership role which in other fields has fallen to the United States. The bank will accept cell lines that meet a set of ethical standards, carefully study and grow them to ensure they are scientifically useful, and then make them available to researchers.

In Australia, the government is funding research and helping to set up a national stem cell center. In the Czech Republic, Dvorak's lab at the Mendel University of Agriculture and Forestry is part of a Centre for Cell Therapy and Tissue Repair, supported by the government. South Korea has derived almost as many new lines of human embryonic stem cells as the United States, according to the Globe survey, and researchers there were the first to create stem cells from a cloned human embryo (THIS PUBLICATION HAS SINCE BEEN RETRACTED!!!)-- a scientific milestone that American researchers grumble should have happened in the United States.

And the EU just voted in the past couple of weeks to continue financial support of embryonic stem cell research. $38M over the next 6 years. That's on top of money that is available at the country government level. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...8J2ETVG0.shtml

Singapore is another hot medical research country where they allow work with embryonic stem cells. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2/b3915052.htm
The government has $600M to invest in startup biotechs focusing on stem cells. Korea and China are in the mix as well.


The fact of the matter is that if the federal government doesn't allow US scientists to work with a broader range of cell lines, then the research here will be much more limited than in other parts of the world. And without increased funding (NIH and NSF grant funding is flat over the past couple of years), then the dollars are tightly spread. The reality is that alot of funding goes to a few. The rest fight for what is left. http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/nih06p.pdf

Not trying to butt into y'alls debate (although it has been entertaining! ). As someone who claims to be a "geeky" scientist and spent my time in the lab fighting through graduate school and now spends every day in a lab as a sales person, this is my stuff! You go into labs where they are doing stem cell work and there is so much concern around funding and limitations - especially in Texas and Louisiana where the state governments are talking about eliminating it all together. It's hard not to let it get you all amped up.

And finally, here's a link to my company's webpage for stem cell research. You'll see a link at the bottom for a list of cell lines. You can see that probably about 50% or more are listed as NOT APPROVED meaning that US scientists are not approved to work with them as things stand now. http://www.invitrogen.com/content.cfm?pageid=10319 We don't sell stem cell lines but we do sell everything you need to grow them.

So there's my two cents laid out there... Whew...feel better!

[duckbillplatty]

California alone has spent over 3 billion dollars to fund stem cell research. That was recently upped by 150 million by Gov Schwatzenegger (I have no idea on that spelling we'll calm him Arnold). So I'd say given those numbers we are competetive if you only take California into account. No federal funds included.

[Bill Pup60]

I'm certainly not an expert in any of this, but in reading through all the arguments from both sides I noticed a continuing implication that Bush had virtually halted "stem cell research". From what I have observed in this issue, that is certainly not the case. In fact, the Bush administration is the FIRST administration to support and approve ANY federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It is simply limited to a set of embryonic stem cell lines that were already in existence.

Further, there is no federal restriction on the reseach, only that fed funds are not available for any NEW lines.

Also, there is absolutely no restriction on research or federal funding on ADULT stem cells. From what I've read ( and considering how slanted and one sided most of the media is, who knows what's right) virtually ALL progress in stem cell research so far has come from ADULT stem cell lines. Considering that there has been considerable research on embryonic stem cells, does anyone know of any tangible breakthrough on these type stem cells??

[StrayDawg]

You said that we would have no space shuttle without government funding, that is true. The space shuttle is a white elephant. Would we have space TRAVEL without government funding? I think yes.

That's a pretty slippery definition of travel. What the private guys are doing so far is just going to the edge of space and falling back down. They aren't really "traveling" in space. The shuttle is no white elephant. Without the thousands of engineers at NASA who worked on this project for over a decade, it just wouldn't happen. Some guy in his garage in Shreveport isn't going to accidentally create a craft that can (at a bare minimum) escape the bonds of gravity, orbit the planet, and re-enter without becoming toast. The guy from Virgin Atlantic is trying to sell rides on his first "spacecraft", but it isn't complete yet. From what I hear, it isn't really that close. So, I'm guessing he is just trying to get some cash and keep the project alive...hence the limitation of private funding.

Lockheed Martin... Another defense analogy. A problem... we are talking about medical research. I doubt the government subsidizes the Boeing 747 as much as the F22 because people other then the US government can buy the 747.

First of all, Boeing (the maker of the 747) disagrees with you. The 747 was built from technology that was developed from the C-5 cargo plane program. Guess where that came from.
http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/747.html


It's not about any certain industry; defense, pharm, or otherwise. It's about companies keeping their heads above financial water. Just as Lockheed Martin could not operate at a net loss for 10 years, neither could Merck or Pfizer give up all research on their pipeline drugs and throw all of their R&D funding into SC research. It would put them out of business.

moving on to the pharms:
b) how much is enough? You want the federal government spending more than a few billion on this? If stem cell research can produce no results within the near future despite billions and billions of dollars in research, then maybe, just maybe it is a bad investment and the private companies know that.

No one is suggesting giving them a blank check. But, we have the money to open up more research and we aren't doing it. And, maybe, just maybe it would be the greatest investment we ever made. I hate big government and wasteful spending as much as every other Republican. But, I also understand that you can't simply look at dollars and cents. We should also judge the return on the investment. Think of the money that could be saved on Medicare and Medicaid with just a handful of medical breakthroughs. Big companies are licking their chops about this. Problem is they can't get access to the few lines that are available. The vast majority are thrown away.

I didn't take it back to Nixon and I believe the facts are on my side for the first President Bush. He was the best President for the space program since Jack Kennedy. His son is even better.

Bottom line: Increase during Bush, decrese during Clinton, increase during Bush.

The Republican party is bigger than George Bush and the Democratic Party is bigger than Bill Clinton. The biggest NASA breakthrough during GHWB's administration was the Hubble Telescope which was authorized by Reagan. As I've said in my earlier posts, it's not about party. It's about what is politically expedient at the time.

And, if you want me to believe you instead of the guy who ran NASA for seven years, you're going to have a tough sell on your hands.

That's good he sets high goals and backs it up with funding. This reminds me of a certain John F. Kennedy saing we should go to the moon and then funding the project. I'm glad he did that and I'm glad President Bush has done that. As I said, the Republican Party is good for science specifically NASA.

It's not only good to fund it, it's politically necessary. Just my two cents, but there are a lot of things between here and Mars that we should study first. But, that's just my opinion.

Spin all you want, but I'm looking at the math.

No spin here. You keep looking at math. I'm looking at sociology, anthropology, and policy. Math can't predict governments.

Of course you don't have to explain to me that brain drain happened. Werner von Braun is another great example. We actually stole him. But we aren't exactly killing all he Jews over here. We are not run by a facist party despite what salty would have us believe. My point is that you are drawing a parallel between Einstein fleeing the country for fears of being killed and not having federal dollars to do stem cell research.

Who the hell said that we are a facist country oppressing people? I never said that. I said that in the past, we have benefited from receiving scientists who have fled oppression in other countries. With other countries now offering more opportunity, we won't have the same benefit in coming years, which is a reason to take every advantage to move forward in the world of science. Have you been reading my posts?

Hey, I run marathons too.

I run every now and then. Sometime for exercise and sometimes because people are pissed off at me.

OK, so I've got you crawfishing on the brain drain now with the exception of Europe. Is Europe really spending billions of Euros on SC research? Sorry man, but I just don't want speculation, show me some numbers. Even better show me some scientists because right now I'm looking at the faculty of Louisiana Tech and seeing a lot of Europeans. In fact, I would argue that there is still an exodus of foreign nationals into the US after looking at the faculty positions of LSUHSC School of Medicine.

Not crawfishing, just making the same observations you are, but thinking a few years down the road. Why have those Europeans come here in the past? Because we have always been the best at a lot of things and we always look for improvement. Ignoring the most promising science of our time is not moving forward, and some American scientists could easily go to other countries for the same reason those Europeans came here.

Next time I have dinner with Tony Blair and the Queen Mum at Buckingham Palace, I will get you some numbers on their stem cell spending.

..."we still don't know what we don't know". That is Phillip Armour's 2nd Order of Ignorance and not a good thing.

I'm not familiar with Mr. Armour, but what does he say about failure as it relates to ignoring your own potential?

I realize I'm taing the unpopular side on this issue, and what's funny is that I think it was a good call for a completely different reason than the President. He made his decision based on morality. I think that was wrong. If you are throwing the dead bodies away, then you are wasting a resource. I want to see some sort of proof that baby farming is going on to dismiss SC research based on that. Until abortion is made illegal, we are not doing the morally upright thing by making sure the bodies are thrown away.

Actually, it's not that unpopular. Millions of people agree with you. It just makes no scientific sense to waste a resource and it makes no political sense to put your party in this situation during an election year. Your later post about California funding is a good example. Bush's decision is forcing Republicans (especially moderate Republicans) to separate themselves from him, which is splintering the party.

Let's say that you are running for Senate as a Republican. A reporter asks you how you feel about the Presidents policy on stem cells. As a politician, you are looking for the answer that will please the most possible people. Had Bush OK'd stem cells, you could have talked about the "pro-life" aspect of stem cell research because it improves human life. That pleases the conservatives and still placates moderates and liberals who favor stem cell research. Since he vetoed stem cells, you have to either split from the "party view" by disagreeing with the president, or you have to give a sermon about morals, which is a losing propositon in many ways. Bottom line is that the world is moving forward on this and we aren't, which hurts us scientifically and hurts Bush policially.

And definitely no hard feelings, I haven't been this excited about a debate on this forum in a while. I am really enjoying it and appreciate the thought out replies.

I like it too, but I'm not sure how much more time I can dedicate to typing these damn long emails.

[StrayDawg]

I'm certainly not an expert in any of this, but in reading through all the arguments from both sides I noticed a continuing implication that Bush had virtually halted "stem cell research". From what I have observed in this issue, that is certainly not the case. In fact, the Bush administration is the FIRST administration to support and approve ANY federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It is simply limited to a set of embryonic stem cell lines that were already in existence.

Further, there is no federal restriction on the reseach, only that fed funds are not available for any NEW lines.

Also, there is absolutely no restriction on research or federal funding on ADULT stem cells. From what I've read ( and considering how slanted and one sided most of the media is, who knows what's right) virtually ALL progress in stem cell research so far has come from ADULT stem cell lines. Considering that there has been considerable research on embryonic stem cells, does anyone know of any tangible breakthrough on these type stem cells??

BillPup,

From what I know about the subject, I think you are right. I thought Bush's decision in 2001 was pretty brilliant. He had to worry about his "base" and getting re-elected, so he didn't open funding all the way. But, he also understood what the research might produce, so he couldn't ignore it completely. Taking the middle ground was a good move.

Now that he doesn't have to worry about re-election and members of his own party passed the bill in the House and Senate, this would have been the time to sign the bill and allow our scientists to compete.

I'm sure you're probably sick of reading my posts by now, so I will leave you guys alone.

Take care.

[THEarmada]

I'm certainly not an expert in any of this, but in reading through all the arguments from both sides I noticed a continuing implication that Bush had virtually halted "stem cell research". From what I have observed in this issue, that is certainly not the case. In fact, the Bush administration is the FIRST administration to support and approve ANY federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It is simply limited to a set of embryonic stem cell lines that were already in existence.

Further, there is no federal restriction on the reseach, only that fed funds are not available for any NEW lines.

Also, there is absolutely no restriction on research or federal funding on ADULT stem cells. From what I've read ( and considering how slanted and one sided most of the media is, who knows what's right) virtually ALL progress in stem cell research so far has come from ADULT stem cell lines. Considering that there has been considerable research on embryonic stem cells, does anyone know of any tangible breakthrough on these type stem cells??

They "rewired" a paralysed rat using embryonic stem cells. Pretty remarkable result.

[dhussdawg]

BillPup,


Now that he doesn't have to worry about re-election and members of his own party passed the bill in the House and Senate, this would have been the time to sign the bill and allow our scientists to compete.

I wish Bush would take this approach about a bunch of things. He has no one left to please, he should make some tough decisions and put pressure on Congress to help pass these initiatives. He should make cuts, jab pork spending, etc. Of course, it would nearly be impossible to get those bastards in Congress to go along with it. They won't cut back on spending, ever. Our country is in dire need of it, we are already beginning to see some effect from our overspending over the years. The dollar is weakening everyday.

[Dawgbitten]

"I run every now and then. Sometime for exercise and sometimes because people are pissed off at me."

Or if you are taking a nice leizurely late night drive around Monroe.

[duckbillplatty]

I like it too, but I'm not sure how much more time I can dedicate to typing these damn long emails.

I'm reaching my time allowance too, you just got the last word. Thanks for the spirited debate.

[StrayDawg]

"I run every now and then. Sometime for exercise and sometimes because people are pissed off at me."

Or if you are taking a nice leizurely late night drive around Monroe.

That's a good example of someone who was pissed off at me.

[THEarmada]

SDDawg, how do you feel about somatic cell nuclear transfer?

[duckbillplatty]

OK, it's time for me to eat a little bit of crow.

There are some very successful procedures currently using stem cells for the generation of bone marrow. So on that point, stem cell research has produced results.

My bad, but at least I admit when I'm wrong

[marketdawg]

[quote=StrayDawg]That's a pretty slippery definition of travel. What the private guys are doing so far is just going to the edge of space and falling back down. They aren't really "traveling" in space. The shuttle is no white elephant. Without the thousands of engineers at NASA who worked on this project for over a decade, it just wouldn't happen. Some guy in his garage in Shreveport isn't going to accidentally create a craft that can (at a bare minimum) escape the bonds of gravity, orbit the planet, and re-enter without becoming toast. The guy from Virgin Atlantic is trying to sell rides on his first "spacecraft", but it isn't complete yet. From what I hear, it isn't really that close. So, I'm guessing he is just trying to get some cash and keep the project alive...hence the limitation of private funding.

Stray, I think Charlie is working on one in his garage right now!!!! He gave up on putting his old four wheeler together and decided a spacecraft would be easier.