+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

  1. #1
    Champ dawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond repute dawg80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    27,736

    Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    Did the Japs draw up the attack plan on Pearl Harbor from scratch? We know they had spies in Hawaii. In fact, and this an aside for another post, but the FBI knew of a prominent Japanese spy, but left him alone. Why? because he was a loyal Democrat and contributed to "the right people" in both national and local politics. As you know, Hawaii was not yet a state at that time. But, the Japs did not draw their plans from info provided by spies, although they used such data for up-to-the-minute changes. So, where did the Japs get their battle plan for their attack on Pearl? Why, from an American admiral. I want to say it was Rear Admiral Fletcher. Fletcher developed a battle plan to attack Pearl and used it in a complete surprise, and War Game winning tactic, in 1932.

    The US Navy conducts war games for the purpose of training personnel and, more importantly, to test tactical and strategic theories. It was during a series of such games that Fletcher, in command of the Blue Side, devised a plan to attack the base of the Red Side, HQ'd at Pearl. On the Blue team were the carriers Lexington and Saratoga, while the Red team had the other three Pacific Fleet carries, Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown. Fletcher used a clever ruse to fool the Red Team's commanders into thinking he was gonna attack the Red's 2nd surface fleet, with his two carriers, posted just south of Alaska. They took the bait and went to set an ambush on an attack that would never come. Instead, the Blue's two carriers steamed at full speed, south, toward Hawaii. Three days later, a stunned Red Team watched helplessly as planes from Lexington and Saratoga soared overhead, attacking Battleship Row with dummy bombs and torpedoes. The attack approaches, the two main waves, the prioritizing of targets, was EXACTLY the same as the Japs would use just 9 years later, December 7, 1941. Did the Japs steal the plans? Nope! they were readily shared by American naval intelligence during a joint US-Japan navy war game, in 1933. These plans, were one of 38 such tactical plans, and the attack on Pearl was number 13.

    This attack plan was actually developed by then retired Admiral Harry Yarnell. Yarnell was written off as a nut case, just a crazy old officer who needed to be retired, which he was in 1932. But Admiral Fletcher didn't think he was a nut, and proved Yarnell's theory correct by using his plan, to the letter. Incredibly! the US navy commanders, the War Department, thought it was "interesting" and congratulated Fletcher for his winning that particular war game scenario. One year later, in a political move, designed to appease the Japs and ease tensions between the two nations, the two sides shared information and agreed to "cooperate" for the mutual benefit of each one. It should have alerted someone, anyone! when the Jap navy planners asked about the 1932 war games, specifically the successful air attack on Pearl. Jap spies had watched and noted said war games, and alerted their government. We said, oh those old things? Sure, here ya go! But we have to warn ya (with a chuckle) they are the brainchild of an old crazy fellow, a retired admiral. Not worth the paper they are written on. WE HANDED THE COPIES TO JAP NAVAL PLANNERS.

    In 1932 Pearl was just one of several bases of our Pacific Fleet. In 1941, FDR had moved Fleet HQ, and the carrier task force: Enterprise, Hornet, Yorktown, to Pearl. In 1932 no more than about 50 US Navy ships were assigned to Pearl. In 1941, that number topped 180, including the 3 carriers and their support vessels. Ironically, the carrier task force: Lexington and Saratoga, was maintained in San Diego for "protection of the US west coast, and for the safety of the task force against a surprise attack at ….[drum roll please]...Pearl Harbor."


    It should be noted that neither Yarnell nor Fletcher gloated on December 8, 1941 with a "told ya so!" It is said they both openly wept for the loss of American lives and ships. Sometimes it hurts to be proven right.

  2. #2
    Champ dawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond repute dawg80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    27,736

    Re: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    From the best "war" movie ever:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1SkVldiHI

    This is purely fiction, and very funny at that. But it is illustrative of things, "luck" that happen that forever change history. Sometimes ONE guy, yes ONE fellow, makes a decision that starts a chain of events that alter history.

    Six months after Pearl Harbor the Japs were dealt a crippling blow, losing 4 carriers at the Battle of Midway. It was as much luck as it was planning and the skill of American pilots. Wade McCluskey was given command of a flight of dive bombers off of Enterprise. His group consisted of just 8 bombers. They were supposed to rendezvous with the rest of the attack force off of Enterprise, and two squadrons from the Yorktown, and then make a coordinated attack with torpedo planes going in low, the dive bombers high. For 30 minutes McCluskey's little group flew in a circle, burning precious fuel. Slowly more dive bombers arrived, all from the Enterprise. Eventually there would be 28 Dauntless Dive Bombers, all from the Enterprise. They were suppose to maintain radio silence, but McCluskey broke that and called out to his group gathered above the clouds. He said it's obvious we have missed connecting with our torpedo planes and the fighter cover. The torpedo squadron had the coordinates of the Jap fleet, we were suppose to follow them. We can either return to the Enterprise, refuel and try again, or we can press on from here and trust to luck we find the Jap carriers. The other pilots waited....McCluskey finally said, "I have a feeling where those Jap carriers are. Follow me."

    At 10:20 am June 4, 1942 McCluskey's lost planes finally popped out of cloud cover and they could see the ocean below...and they saw all 4 Jap carriers. Lady Luck smiled, it was a perfect setup. Those missing torpedo planes had gone in and attacked on their own, with minimal effect, but they had drawn the Jap air cover down to the deck. Also, all 4 carriers were in the process of recovering returning planes from a raid on Midway Island. McCluskey's 28 bombers saw their chance and dove to the attack. In 6 minutes, with the last bomb hitting at 10:26 am three of the Jap carriers had received critical hits. All three were knocked out of action and all three would sink in the next 24 hours or so. The fourth Jap carrier was attacked and sunk the next day.

    In SIX MINUTES the mighty Japanese Imperial Navy was knocked out of being able to conduct offensive operations. The rest of WWII in the Pacific would be the US and our allies taking the fight to Japan. All because Wade McCluskey "had a feeling" he knew where the Jap carriers were.

  3. #3
    Champ TYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond reputeTYLERTECHSAS has a reputation beyond repute TYLERTECHSAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    46,703

    Re: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    Thanks for these!

  4. #4
    Champ dawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond repute dawg80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    27,736

    Re: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    Two other quick notes...

    First, Admiral Yamamoto's complicated attack plan for Midway included a ruse, attacking the Aleutian Islands off of Alaska, thinking it would draw the US carriers up north, allowing the Japs time to capture Midway and set up defenses. Then when the US carriers returned to Midway, Yamamoto planned to ambush them. This is exactly from Fletcher's 1932 war games, the same ruse he used!

    Secondly, Wade McCluskey was a late replacement to command that flight of Dauntless Dive Bombers. His immediate superior had intelligence experience, and was tasked by Admiral Nuance to study what the Japs were doing and what they might do. With the engine idling in the Dauntless, McCluskey hurriedly pulled on his flight suit and jumped into the cockpit. He was told, at the last minute, he would take the flight out. History hangs on the even the smallest things sometimes.

  5. #5
    Champ tenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond reputetenacious_dog has a reputation beyond repute tenacious_dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Minden / Homer
    Posts
    3,700

    Re: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    Quote Originally Posted by dawg80 View Post
    Did the Japs draw up the attack plan on Pearl Harbor from scratch? We know they had spies in Hawaii. In fact, and this an aside for another post, but the FBI knew of a prominent Japanese spy, but left him alone. Why? because he was a loyal Democrat and contributed to "the right people" in both national and local politics. As you know, Hawaii was not yet a state at that time. But, the Japs did not draw their plans from info provided by spies, although they used such data for up-to-the-minute changes. So, where did the Japs get their battle plan for their attack on Pearl? Why, from an American admiral. I want to say it was Rear Admiral Fletcher. Fletcher developed a battle plan to attack Pearl and used it in a complete surprise, and War Game winning tactic, in 1932.

    The US Navy conducts war games for the purpose of training personnel and, more importantly, to test tactical and strategic theories. It was during a series of such games that Fletcher, in command of the Blue Side, devised a plan to attack the base of the Red Side, HQ'd at Pearl. On the Blue team were the carriers Lexington and Saratoga, while the Red team had the other three Pacific Fleet carries, Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown. Fletcher used a clever ruse to fool the Red Team's commanders into thinking he was gonna attack the Red's 2nd surface fleet, with his two carriers, posted just south of Alaska. They took the bait and went to set an ambush on an attack that would never come. Instead, the Blue's two carriers steamed at full speed, south, toward Hawaii. Three days later, a stunned Red Team watched helplessly as planes from Lexington and Saratoga soared overhead, attacking Battleship Row with dummy bombs and torpedoes. The attack approaches, the two main waves, the prioritizing of targets, was EXACTLY the same as the Japs would use just 9 years later, December 7, 1941. Did the Japs steal the plans? Nope! they were readily shared by American naval intelligence during a joint US-Japan navy war game, in 1933. These plans, were one of 38 such tactical plans, and the attack on Pearl was number 13.

    This attack plan was actually developed by then retired Admiral Harry Yarnell. Yarnell was written off as a nut case, just a crazy old officer who needed to be retired, which he was in 1932. But Admiral Fletcher didn't think he was a nut, and proved Yarnell's theory correct by using his plan, to the letter. Incredibly! the US navy commanders, the War Department, thought it was "interesting" and congratulated Fletcher for his winning that particular war game scenario. One year later, in a political move, designed to appease the Japs and ease tensions between the two nations, the two sides shared information and agreed to "cooperate" for the mutual benefit of each one. It should have alerted someone, anyone! when the Jap navy planners asked about the 1932 war games, specifically the successful air attack on Pearl. Jap spies had watched and noted said war games, and alerted their government. We said, oh those old things? Sure, here ya go! But we have to warn ya (with a chuckle) they are the brainchild of an old crazy fellow, a retired admiral. Not worth the paper they are written on. WE HANDED THE COPIES TO JAP NAVAL PLANNERS.

    In 1932 Pearl was just one of several bases of our Pacific Fleet. In 1941, FDR had moved Fleet HQ, and the carrier task force: Enterprise, Hornet, Yorktown, to Pearl. In 1932 no more than about 50 US Navy ships were assigned to Pearl. In 1941, that number topped 180, including the 3 carriers and their support vessels. Ironically, the carrier task force: Lexington and Saratoga, was maintained in San Diego for "protection of the US west coast, and for the safety of the task force against a surprise attack at .[drum roll please]...Pearl Harbor."


    It should be noted that neither Yarnell nor Fletcher gloated on December 8, 1941 with a "told ya so!" It is said they both openly wept for the loss of American lives and ships. Sometimes it hurts to be proven right.
    The point was driven home by the British in mid-November 1940 at the Battle of Taranto where they destroyed approximately half of the Italian fleet in port with aircraft. A year before Pearl Harbor. I believe Japan already had their plans conceived at the time of Taranto attack. It's a historical fact that the Japanese sent advisers to Italy to study the attack. Especially because of the shallow water port similarities to Pearl Harbor.
    Graduate of Louisiana Tech University - Flagship of the University of Louisiana System, Lifetime Alumnus, LTAC, Season Tickets: 10 Football, 5 MBB, 5 Baseball. Go Dawgs!

  6. #6
    Champ dawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond reputedawg80 has a reputation beyond repute dawg80's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    27,736

    Re: Interesting Historic Tidbit re: Pearl Harbor

    Quote Originally Posted by tenacious_dog View Post
    The point was driven home by the British in mid-November 1940 at the Battle of Taranto where they destroyed approximately half of the Italian fleet in port with aircraft. A year before Pearl Harbor. I believe Japan already had their plans conceived at the time of Taranto attack. It's a historical fact that the Japanese sent advisers to Italy to study the attack. Especially because of the shallow water port similarities to Pearl Harbor.
    I'm sure the Japs used whatever resources they could in the drawing of the plans. They based so much on the success of the attack, that's not something they took lightly. It is also true the Japs had specially designed torpedoes, with wooden fins, to accommodate the shallow waters. Unfortunately for them, very fortunate for us, the attack at Pearl failed to accomplish the main objective: the destruction of our carriers. Which is why Yamamoto went back to the drawing board so quickly, and conceived the campaign for Midway. It was designed to draw the US carriers into open battle.

    Now, a month before, we and the Japs bumbled and stumbled into each other at the Battle of Coral Sea. The Yorktown was damaged and the Lexington sunk. The Japs lost a small escort carrier, but had two of their frontline carries damaged to the point they had to pulled out and sent home for repairs. This was significant since Yamamoto's Midway plan called for 6 carriers. He would have just 4 to take on our 3: Enterprise, Hornet, and the limping Yorktown.

    The truth is, while still at full strength and with the morale issue squarely on their side, the Japs accomplished:

    Pearl: a tactical win, strategic defeat
    Coral Sea: tactical win, strategic defeat (was part of a land invasion to seize a port, which had to be abandoned)
    Midway: tactical defeat, strategic defeat

    All in the first 6 months of the war. It got worse for them after that.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts