Poverty in America

[champion110]

20/20 had an excellent show on last night called "Poverty in America". They spotlighted the children of poverty. I know some of you will dismiss the thought of a show like this - claiming it is just the "liberal" media, but you would be wrong about that and it would not be too "Christian" to do so.

This is one of the best shows that I have seen on the topic. While we send money overseas, we have HUGE problems right here in our own country. This showed the cycle of poverty that is so pervasive here. While I have heard everything on here about blaming the parents, I think this show would help some realize what the parents are like.

One example was a girl that became pregnant at 15. No, the segment wasn't about her, it was about one of her two children mostly. The 15 year old couldn't read or write. Here was her son starting kindergarten WAY behind the other kids. The little boy had huge dreams - just like the other kids, but was at a distinct disadvantage. He wanted nothing more than to learn to read. Of course, his dreams were about having a home - they were homeless. He talked mostly of food and having a place to sleep. This child will have a tough time breaking out of the cycle. Through all this, the Mom continued to take her children to church every Sunday and faithfully looked for work. Even the Human Services department was unable to find her a job. She maintained her strength in this tough world. Her parents? Her Mom was on crack and Dad not in the picture. All alone.......

Another story showed a determined teenager that lived with his Dad. The Dad lost his job due to heart trouble and had, not only his 2 kids, but was raising 3 more very small grandchildren - all on his own. The teen was extremely bright, had resisted the gangs, and worked from the time he got off school till 10:30 every night. He took a bus 30 miles to a cafe that paid him about 30 dollars a day. They got food stamps that would last till about 2 weeks before the end of each month. Because of this, they were contantly rationing food, even for the babies. The boy's grades were beginning to drop and a hs degree was looking more doubtful. The roach infested little hole they lived in would bring tears to your eyes.

My point in all of this is that as some rally against government programs for the poor, please remember these people. We have a LOT of them in this country. Every day is a struggle for them. The cycle continues, though. One breaks out from time to time, but most do not. Because of no opportunities and generations of family that have been in the same situation, it is a culture that is tougher to get out of than just "pull yourself up by the boot straps". It is a deeper problem than that.

Most of you know how I feel about programs for the poor. I think that they need a TOTAL revamping. We need to be teaching our children how to break the cycle. At the same time, we need to help them have a beginning that is secure enough that they can learn and have a chance. Most gov't programs do not do that. Cutting them is not the answer, though. Changing them IS part of the answer.

Anyway, this was an excellent show and I rarely say that. I hope that more people get a chance to see it. It is worth your time as a true Christian to learn more about those in our society that need our help. Don't ignore it. At least try to catch this program to see it. We tend to concentrate on some things in the Bible and ignore other things. Children are dying, but we seem to be more worried about profit than anything else right now. Some state that if you are poor, it is your own fault. We label people as lazy or just trying to steal from the gov't. Well, the problem is much much deeper than that. It is wrong to blindly dismiss it, instead of doing what you can to learn about it.

[johnnylightnin]

It was a great show. The saddest story was of the little girl whose father had been in and out of rehab for a drinking problem. As far as I can remember, this was the only family that they followed closely that had both parents in the home. You could actually watch the little girl become further and further broken down as the show continued. There was constant fighting in her home b/w her mother and alcoholic father. In the park where she played, there were needles all over the ground. The show was about youth in Camden, New Jersey. Illegal drug trade is a 43 million dollar business in Camden. Drug Lords rent street corners to pushers for 10K/week. It was pretty disheartening.

All that said, it only goes to further my belief that the government is too inefficient to EVER execute an effective welfare program. Much like Hurricane Katrina, the real help for these problems will come from the church. I certainly hope our new governmental leadership doesn't do away with the faith-based initiatives that we have now. At the same time, the church needs to step up. Champ is right that we talk about what we want to talk about and ignore the things that make us uncomfortable.

[champion110]

It was a great show. The saddest story was of the little girl whose father had been in and out of rehab for a drinking problem. As far as I can remember, this was the only family that they followed closely that had both parents in the home. You could actually watch the little girl become further and further broken down as the show continued. There was constant fighting in her home b/w her mother and alcoholic father. In the park where she played, there were needles all over the ground. The show was about youth in Camden, New Jersey. Illegal drug trade is a 43 million dollar business in Camden. Drug Lords rent street corners to pushers for 10K/week. It was pretty disheartening.

All that said, it only goes to further my belief that the government is too inefficient to EVER execute an effective welfare program. Much like Hurricane Katrina, the real help for these problems will come from the church. I certainly hope our new governmental leadership doesn't do away with the faith-based initiatives that we have now. At the same time, the church needs to step up. Champ is right that we talk about what we want to talk about and ignore the things that make us uncomfortable.

I totally agree that the gov't is inefficient. In fact, it is HORRIBLY inefficient. The problem is that no one is trying to clean it up. Instead, people continue to want to cut the programs more - which results in more cases like the ones above. The Church is not wealthy enough to have all these programs. I think most do what they can, but there is a huge limit on this. When you start seeing the medical (physical and mental illness) in the poor population, it is even more apparent that this is not going to be solved with individuals giving charity. Also, unregulated charity has shown a lot of abuse.

The little girl's story was really sad, as well. When I worked in direct service, I saw these stories everyday. I still have a lot of employees that come talk to me about how it affects them to see this. This story was about Camden, but it is very wide spread. Texas is now down to 2nd to the last in funding for mental illness programs. Yes, behind Louisiana. The homeless population is growing by leaps and bounds. Take a drive through Austin these days. Every corner has someone there with a sign asking for food. Many of these people are not only homeless, but ill. They are wondering around with no place to go and not many are out there helping them.

We live in a very sad society. I can easily insulate myself from it, if I choose. I have a nice home and nice cars and can stay in the middle to upper class circles, if I wish. I don't want to do that. One day a week, I now am leaving my office and going into the neighborhoods doing whatever I can to help my employees. Last week, I sat with a 14 year old and a 28 year old Mom - you do the math. The girl just got back from finding out she was pregnant. The cycle continues. There was a hole in the floor that you could see dirt through. It was a one room apartment in back of an old building. No heat or air. Food had run out for the month. Neither of them, of course, were open to really talking about what to do next. Their concern was what they could find to eat. The Mom has Schizophrenia. She is stable at the present time, but was coughing so bad that I wondered if there is something physical going on. She will, I am sure, be at teh E.R. soon.

[Dirtydawg]

The ones that really break my heart are the ones that want to improve-like the first example you gave. You're right when you say that people don't want to focus on these cases. I think it's because most of the problems of the system comes from those who have a entitlement mentality, so it's easy and convenient to focus on those instead of trying to come up with a way to address the issue.

While it won't necessarily take care of the problem, I would like to see some sort of govt. program that take those who honestly want to make it ahead but have a problem doing so because of no emmployment opportunities where they live and move them to communities where there are jobs being offered. There are plenty of opportunities for people who want to work to work down here still. They may not be the best jobs, but if someone is really wanting to work, it will give them that opportunity. Also, in the instances of parents who can't read and write, they could have a program involved in this that allows for them to spend several days learning to read and write. Something to give them confidence and feel beaten down.

[mildawg]

There is no doubt that people suffering in our own country should be taken care of before people in far away countries. That's like all the Hollywood crowd -- who are self-proclaimed liberals -- going to the UN and lobbying the federal government for funding to assist Darfur. Why aren't they out trying to help the people in this country?

Here's the thing I personally cringe about with regard to government aid to a lot of these folks... and it's not a "conservative" vs. "liberal" mentality, because I think many of these people need help getting on their feet. But the problem is that the Democrats will raise taxes to collect money to throw at the problem. That is not the solution. Handing money to a lot of the people described above does nothing for them other than provide a temporary solution to temporary problems. Like the saying "Give a man a fish... teach a man to fish..."

Point in case: the 15 year old girl that couldn't read. Is handing money to her going to do her or her kids any good in the long run? No. She needs subsidized daycare for her kids while she attends school. If she doesn't learn to read or write and get some sort of vocational training, she'll never be self-sufficient and will depend on American tax dollars for the rest of her life.

This girl and others like her should also be able to lean on charities for things they need. I would personally much rather give my money to a charitable organization than to the government. Why? Because I know my money would be going directly to those who need help, whereas I have no idea what the government is really doing with my tax dollars.

One glaring example I'll end with is Katrina. A lot of the folks who refused to evacuate prior to the hurricane were given cash cards (approx. $2000) to help them get back on their feet. What did they do with that money? There are articles all over the news about it, so you can look this up if you want. Plus, what about the people who did evacuate and come back later to receive their cash cards? They were denied the money because they had evacuated. Why were these people penalized? They, too, had lost everything and were just as deserving of this "get-back-on-their-feet" money as the ones who had been stuck in the Superdome. But they were denied it.

In essence, this is why I think that giving tax dollars to the government -- whether the local, state, or federal government -- to help the needy is nothing short of throwing money away. There is too much corruption within the various levels of government to be sure that this money is being used for its intended purpose. I very much believe in using part of my good fortune to help those who aren't as lucky; I simply don't trust that the government is using or would use tax dollars for their expressed purpose.

[champion110]

Mil, even though we disagree some on this subject, some of what you stated above are things that I agree with. Not all of it, but some of it.

Dirty, I like the idea of relocation and training for the Mom. That is something that could happen, if we just re-vamped what assistance looks like. It is ineffective as it is and I think conservatives and liberals can agree with that.

The key is to fix the problem - not take away the money. Liberals want to throw money at it and conservatives want to take the money out. Neither is a solution to the problem.

As for charities, I am E.D. over a region 9 MH Authority agencies in Texas. We cover 47 counties. We contract for state funds, but also work from grants (federal and private). I would love to know where more of these private grants are located, because we could sure use them.

My job centers around consolidating any functions possible between these 9 Mental Health Agencies. We have over 3000 employes between all the agencies and I am looking at administrative functions being put together in a regional office, instead of each doing their own. Hopefully, some of this can help in the cost control. This is what needs to be happening all around the country. It is the first of its kind in Texas and it is a fun project to be creative with solutions.

I hope, in the future, I can find some funds to do some of the innovative ideas that I have for service re-design. The problem is that I have to work within state and federal red tape to do it. If some of that was cut out, a non-profit agency such as this could function more like the private side - but without the profit motive.

[Dirtydawg]

There is no doubt that people suffering in our own country should be taken care of before people in far away countries. That's like all the Hollywood crowd -- who are self-proclaimed liberals -- going to the UN and lobbying the federal government for funding to assist Darfur. Why aren't they out trying to help the people in this country?

Here's the thing I personally cringe about with regard to government aid to a lot of these folks... and it's not a "conservative" vs. "liberal" mentality, because I think many of these people need help getting on their feet. But the problem is that the Democrats will raise taxes to collect money to throw at the problem. That is not the solution. Handing money to a lot of the people described above does nothing for them other than provide a temporary solution to temporary problems. Like the saying "Give a man a fish... teach a man to fish..."

Point in case: the 15 year old girl that couldn't read. Is handing money to her going to do her or her kids any good in the long run? No. She needs subsidized daycare for her kids while she attends school. If she doesn't learn to read or write and get some sort of vocational training, she'll never be self-sufficient and will depend on American tax dollars for the rest of her life.

This girl and others like her should also be able to lean on charities for things they need. I would personally much rather give my money to a charitable organization than to the government. Why? Because I know my money would be going directly to those who need help, whereas I have no idea what the government is really doing with my tax dollars.

One glaring example I'll end with is Katrina. A lot of the folks who refused to evacuate prior to the hurricane were given cash cards (approx. $2000) to help them get back on their feet. What did they do with that money? There are articles all over the news about it, so you can look this up if you want. Plus, what about the people who did evacuate and come back later to receive their cash cards? They were denied the money because they had evacuated. Why were these people penalized? They, too, had lost everything and were just as deserving of this "get-back-on-their-feet" money as the ones who had been stuck in the Superdome. But they were denied it.

In essence, this is why I think that giving tax dollars to the government -- whether the local, state, or federal government -- to help the needy is nothing short of throwing money away. There is too much corruption within the various levels of government to be sure that this money is being used for its intended purpose. I very much believe in using part of my good fortune to help those who aren't as lucky; I simply don't trust that the government is using or would use tax dollars for their expressed purpose.

You make some good points, mil, but unless the cash factor is taken out, there is no guarantee that those receiving it won't misuse it. The $2,000 cash cards were from Red Cross if I remember correctly, and while there was abuse to it, I honestly believe that the majority used them for their intended purposes. Also, I know quite a few people that evacuated that did receive the cards.

[CARTEK]

The programs need to be eliminated and started over from ground ZERO. We spend huge sums of money on medical care and education but the programs are bloated with people that do not care, steal, make payoffs, ad nauseum.

It is said that in south Florida last year more than $3 billion was spent on fake medicare and medicaid care...that's a lot of money.

[olddog75]

It is said that in south Florida last year more than $3 billion was spent on fake medicare and medicaid care...that's a lot of money.

Pretty soon it adds up and it big money:icon_wink:

But guys, no amount of federal money/programs will solve this problem. Some folks are just knuckleheads.

[mildawg]

I had heard from several people back home that many people had been denied the cards because they had evacuated. I definitely couldn't say that everyone in this situation was denied the money, but some were. As far as their usage, I'm sure the majority used them for necessities. I was just pointing out that there were some abuses by a select few; didn't mean for it to sound like everyone was buying booze and football tickets with it.

My overall point in this thread is simple: there's no way to ensure that assistance in the form of cash will be used for its intended purpose. It doesn't matter if we're talking about the government taking our tax money or charitable organizations taking our donations. Human nature dictates that certain people will take advantage of the system, whether those people are distributing the money or receiving it. If aid were provided in the form of tangible goods and services, there would be less room for error or corruption, in my opinion. Instead of giving people money for basic needs like rent, food, and utilities, it might be better to set up some type of account where charitable donations/government aid went directly into these accounts. That way, the money couldn't be used for anything else but its intended purpose. My wife and I have known people who have been in financial difficulties before, and instead of handing them money, we've bought them groceries or gone down to the power company and paid their bill. We fully believe in helping people in need, but we don't want our money used for this purpose to be wasted. That is why I am so distrustful of many of the aid programs our government has in place; the money we pay in taxes goes into a big, black hole and we never really know what happens with it.

[champion110]

We always hear about the abusers of the system, but that is a tiny tiny fraction of the ones that need it. It does need to be re-vamped, but instead we continue to cut and that makes everything worse. I can't believe that we, as a society, can sit and watch people starve and die from no medical help - but we do it every single day.

If you did not get a chance to see this show, please try to catch it on the next round. It is worth your time. I have never seen a show that shows the cycle of poverty and culture better than this one.

It is really easy to say "cut" the money. The more difficult thing to do is to see who you are affecting by doing that.

[mildawg]

We definitely should not cut funding, but we also do not need to increase taxes to "bolster" an already broken system. People who legitimately need help should get it, but it should not become a crutch for them to lean on the rest of their lives. As stated earlier, our country needs to do more to train and educate people so they can provide for themselves... not throw money at them so they have no reason to join the workforce and contribute to society.

[champion110]

We definitely should not cut funding, but we also do not need to increase taxes to "bolster" an already broken system. People who legitimately need help should get it, but it should not become a crutch for them to lean on the rest of their lives. As stated earlier, our country needs to do more to train and educate people so they can provide for themselves... not throw money at them so they have no reason to join the workforce and contribute to society.

We agree on this. It is being cut in many places, though.

[johnnylightnin]

We always hear about the abusers of the system, but that is a tiny tiny fraction of the ones that need it.

Whoa tiger...that's speculation. I know that you are familiar with the systme, but I've heard from other social workers that abuse is not a tiny fraction.

I don't really believe that either opinion is quantifiable.

[champion110]

Whoa tiger...that's speculation. I know that you are familiar with the systme, but I've heard from other social workers that abuse is not a tiny fraction.

I don't really believe that either opinion is quantifiable.

There is abuse in the system. I will stand by the fact that it is a small portion of the help that is being delivered, though. It is those abuse cases that draw the attention, but not the others. That is understandable and, please do not think that I am excusing ANY abuse of the system. Any is too much, but compared to the ones that are helped, it pales.