+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 32 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 470

Thread: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

  1. #1
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    As suspected the epistemology thread brought up the issue of metaphysics. I am setting up this thread which can hopefully operate in parallel to the other thread. Instead of laying out a sweeping proof like I attempted last time, this time I will start with a more concise summary of the metaphysical position of objectivism. Since ethics is built on metaphysics and epistemology, and politics is built on ethics - it seems like these issues have value in a Paw-litics forum despite the lower rate of participation on these threads.

    Here is the summary of the position:

    The base of Objectivism is explicit: "Existence existsand the act of grasping that statement implies two corollary axioms: that something exists which one perceives and that one exists possessing consciousness, consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists."

    Existence and consciousness are facts implicit in every perception. They are the base of all knowledge (and the precondition of proof): knowledge presupposes something to know and someone to know it. They are absolutes which cannot be questioned or escaped: every human utterance, including the denial of these axioms, implies their use and acceptance.

    The third axiom at the base of knowledgean axiom true, in Aristotle's words, of "being qua being"is the Law of Identity. This law defines the essence of existence: to be is to be something, a thing is what it is; and leads to the fundamental principle of all action, the law of causality. The law of causality states that a thing's actions are determined not by chance, but by its nature, i.e., by what it is.

    It is important to observe the interrelation of these three axioms. Existence is the first axiom. The universe exists independent of consciousness. Man is able to adapt his background to his own requirements, but "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" (Francis Bacon). There is no mental process that can change the laws of nature or erase facts. The function of consciousness is not to create reality, but to apprehend it. "Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification."

    The philosophic source of this viewpoint and its major advocate in the history of philosophy is Aristotle. Its opponents are all the other major traditions, including Platonism, Christianity, and German idealism. Directly or indirectly, these traditions uphold the notion that consciousness is the creator of reality. The essence of this notion is the denial of the axiom that existence exists.

    In the religious version, the deniers advocate a consciousness "above" nature, i.e., superior, and contradictory, to existence; in the social version, they melt nature into an indeterminate blur given transient semi-shape by human desire. The first school denies reality by upholding two of them. The second school dispenses with the concept of reality as such. The first rejects science, law, causality, identity, claiming that anything is possible to the omnipotent, miracle-working will of the Lord. The second states the religionists' rejection in secular terms, claiming that anything is possible to the will of "the people."

    Neither school can claim a basis in objective evidence. There is no way to reason from nature to its negation, or from facts to their subversion, or from any premise to the obliteration of argument as such, i.e., of its foundation: the axioms of existence and identity.

    Metaphysics and epistemology are closely interrelated; together they form a philosophy's foundation. In the history of philosophy, the rejection of reality and the rejection of reason have been corollaries. Similarly, as Aristotle's example indicates, a pro-reality metaphysics implies and requires a pro-reason epistemology.

  2. #2
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    bump this baby up... I guess noone wants to talk about existence?

  3. #3
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    I don't understand why some people believe it is more plausible that SOMEONE created existence (and implicily all of the objects in existence - thus, seemingly violating the law of conservation of mass/energy along with the irreducible axioms) than to accept the fact that existence exists and it COULD NOT have been any other way.

    (1) What exactly was it that this consciousness was conscious of prior to creating everything?

    (2) Why is creation necessary? How could it not be possible for existence to JUST EXIST without someONE having to create it?

  4. #4
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    (1) What exactly was it that this consciousness was conscious of prior to creating everything?
    the popular religious sentiment is that the conscious was conscious of itself, which seemingly violates some major axioms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    (2) Why is creation necessary? How could it not be possible for existence to JUST EXIST without someONE having to create it?
    plus, you are left with having to make each of these statements:
    1) something existed (in the case of religion, consciousness of the creator) at all times
    2) the conscious existed in a form that we cannot fathom, had no physical existence to base the consciousness on, yet existed still.
    3) the conscious actor created existence as we know it
    4) carry on all other metaphysical/epistemological discussion from the human perspective from this starting point.

    I think statement 1 and statement 4 can act alone, but steps 2 and 3 still require steps 1 and 4.

  5. #5
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    the popular religious sentiment is that the conscious was conscious of itself, which seemingly violates some major axioms.
    To be conscious of being conscious still requires something of being conscious of initally.

  6. #6
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    To be conscious of being conscious still requires something of being conscious of initally.
    did you think my statement of the popular religious view meant that I thought it made any sense?

  7. #7
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post

    1) something existed (in the case of religion, consciousness of the creator) at all times
    Can you imagine being only conscious of being conscious for nearly and infinite amount of years? Where would knowledge come from (in particular, the knowledge of knowing what to create) assuming you had no reference to any other object of existence?

  8. #8
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Can you imagine being only conscious of being conscious for nearly and infinite amount of years? Where would knowledge come from (in particular, the knowledge of knowing what to create) assuming you had no reference to any other object of existence?
    Good point...

    For the creator,
    1) Consciousness exists
    2) Knowledge exists
    3) It takes an infinitely long time to realize that a conscious form gets bored if it is introspective the whole time.
    4) Consciousness used knowledge and voodoo to create existence
    5)...

  9. #9
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    Good point...

    For the creator,
    1) Consciousness exists
    2) Knowledge exists
    3) It takes an infinitely long time to realize that a conscious form gets bored if it is introspective the whole time.
    4) Consciousness used knowledge and voodoo to create existence
    5)...
    "God made Man in his likeness."

  10. #10
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    So knowledge (origin unknown) + voodoo = existence

  11. #11
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    How about this: God A gives God B innate knowledge. God B creates existence (with who knows what matter and energy). Where does God A get knowledge (obvious question I know)? He gets it from God Z who got it from God Y and so on.

  12. #12
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Where is Spinoza? He is usually good for an off-base comment that doesn't make any sense.

  13. #13
    Champ randerizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the roughranderizer is a jewel in the rough randerizer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,452

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    How about this: God A gives God B innate knowledge. God B creates existence (with who knows what matter and energy). Where does God A get knowledge (obvious question I know)? He gets it from God Z who got it from God Y and so on.
    Hogwash. Any religion supporting more than one God has no concept of existence.

    If there were 26 different Gods, and there was no matter or energy, how would any of them know that they were alone? So how would A give anything to B?

  14. #14
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    ^Your faculty of reason is just not superior enough to appreciate God's mysterious ways. That is why you have to have faith in the irrational over the much more rational theory I previously posted.

  15. #15
    Dawg Adamant Argument Czar Guisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond reputeGuisslapp has a reputation beyond repute Guisslapp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    In your mind and under your skin
    Posts
    17,280

    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Ah I feel a disturbance in the force (a post by Spinoza coming).

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts