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Thread: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

  1. #316
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Why do I get the feeling that you are talking completely out your ass again?

    Big Bang theorists predict that the universe began as a gravitational singularity (infinite density) occupying a single point. Density would require mass.

    No one has said that we can see or know "all of the story." But if you can't sense it, you can't know it.
    No, you seem to be the one talking out of your ass. What the heck is a "gravitational singularity"? and how could such a thing exist outside space, time, and mass? The bottom line is that there is no way to test for the orgins of the Big Bang so the theorists can propose anything. They could just as easily stated that God created the Big Bang. All we know about the Big Bang is that it occurred.

    I tend to agree that we need to "sense" something in order to know it. I'm not one for supernatural events or miracles here on Earth but there is enough of a mystery to our existence as to allow room for the idea that a Supreme Being is responsible for the Big Bang. So the belief in God comes down to a personal choice for a worldview. One where the universe is a natural, perhaps random, occurrance without any meaning or significance or a place created on purpose by a Supreme Being for a particular purpose.

    Since you cannot prove or disproven which of the above worldviews is correct, why do you insist that your choice is the proper one.

    Since some people claim to sense the presence of God, perhaps there is a sixth sense that has not yet been discovered.

  2. #317
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg View Post
    No, you seem to be the one talking out of your ass. What the heck is a "gravitational singularity"? and how could such a thing exist outside space, time, and mass? The bottom line is that there is no way to test for the orgins of the Big Bang so the theorists can propose anything. They could just as easily stated that God created the Big Bang. All we know about the Big Bang is that it occurred.
    Look it up. I am sure you will learn more than you think you already know about the Big Bang theory. Density doesn't exist apart from "mass" - that was MY point. Think about all of the mass of the universe condensed into an infintesimally small space - now make the space even smaller. That is gravitational singularity. That is the theorized origin of the universe. Saying God created the Big Bang leads you to the same issues we have already pointed out (your sci-fi view of "alternate dimensions" notwithstanding).

  3. #318
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg View Post
    I don't think you're understanding my question. How do we know that that's the response to have? Why would we have a fight or flight response if we've never had the need for it because we've never perceived the need for it? In other words, how do we have the fear to begin with to apply to that situation? How is it that we feel fear in response to possible pain/ or death and not elation? How do we have any emotion to apply to any situation? Let me see if I can give different example. Let's say you're married. You come home one day to find your wife having sex with Randerizer. Let's assume you've never had a girlfriend or any other cheat on you. You will have some rather serious emotional struggles going on. Where do those emotions come from if you've never had that experience and those perceptions before? How do you instinctively know that that is how you are supposed to feel when your best friend is balls deep in your wife?
    What I am saying is that emotions are kind of like trained reflexes. They are conceptual shortcuts. Your body has the ability to trigger these "feelings" so you don't screw up. I would bet that evolution helped "select for" these abilities. The feelings are a natural part of our biology. The conceptual shortcuts are typically learned. Fundamentally emotions are "triggered" by concepts (that is - the senses don't trigger them directly, but some level of cognition is required to provoke the feeling). Here is more explanation from the epistemology thread:

    A feeling or emotion is a response to an object one perceives (or imagines) such as a man, an animal, an event. The object by itself, however, has no power to invoke a feeling in the observer.

    Emotions are distinct from sensations because a sensation is an experience transmitted by purely physical means – it is independent of a person’s ideas. By contrast love, desire, fear, anger, joy are not simply products of physical stimuli. They depend on the content of the mind.


    Once a man has acquired a vocabulary of conceptual knowledge, he automatizes it, just as one automatizes the knowledge of spelling or any complex skill. Similarly, once a man has formed a series of value-judgments, he automatizes them. He does not need a process of appraisal in order to decide that he values a high grade on a test. One’s value-judgments, like one’s past knowledge, are present in the subconscious – meaning by this term a store of the mental contents one has acquired by conscious means, but which are not in conscious awareness at a given time. Under the appropriate conditions the mind applies such contents to a new object automatically and instantaneously, without the need of further conscious consideration. To many people, as a result, it seems as if men perceive and then feel, with no intervening factor. The truth is that a chain of ideas and value-judgments intervenes.

    Interesting story Peikoff tells:...When, as a college teacher, I would reach the topic of emotions in class, my standard procedure was to open the desk, take out a stack of examination booklets, and, without any explanations, start distributing them. Consternation invariably broke loose, with cries such as "You never said we were having a test today!" and "It isn't fair!" Whereupon I would take back the booklets and ask: "How many can explain the emotion that just swept over you? Is it an inexplicable primary, a quirk of your glands, a message from God or the id?" The answer was obvious. The booklets, to most of them, meant failure on an exam, a lower grade in the course, a blot on their transcript, i.e., bad news. On this one example, even the dullest students grasped with alacrity that emotions do have causes and that their causes are the things men think. (The auditors in the room, who do not write exams, remained calm during this experiment. To them, the surprise involved no negative value-judgment.)...

    An emotion derives from a percept assessed within a context; the context is defined by a highly complex conceptual content. Most of this content at any time is not present in the conscious awareness. But it is real and operative nonetheless. What makes emotions incomprehensible to many people is the fact that their ideas are not only largely subconscious, but also inconsistent. Men have the ability to accept contradictions without knowing it. This leads to the appearance of CONFLICT between thought and feelings.

    Emotions are not inexplicable demons, though they become that if a man holds contradictions and does not identify his ideas explicitly. Even then, the cause of emotions remains the same. Strictly speaking, a “clash between thought and feeling” is a misnomer – every such clash is at root and ideational clash.

  4. #319
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    I can guarantee you that there is no scientific justification for the argument that nothingness preceded the big bang. The rational explanation is that SOMETHING existed, and that an unstable accumulation of energy of some sort triggered the big bang.

    I have not done the research on the subject, but if Guisslap's suggestion of a gravitational singularity does not seem unreasonable to me and my knowledge of energetics.

  5. #320
    Champ saltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your time saltydawg's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Look it up. I am sure you will learn more than you think you already know about the Big Bang theory. Density doesn't exist apart from "mass" - that was MY point. Think about all of the mass of the universe condensed into an infintesimally small space - now make the space even smaller. That is gravitational singularity. That is the theorized origin of the universe. Saying God created the Big Bang leads you to the same issues we have already pointed out (your sci-fi view of "alternate dimensions" notwithstanding).
    An untestable theory is worthless. Sure, the "expanding universe becomes the contracting universe" that repeats the cycle forever and ever ......boy oh boy, does that sound exciting.:icon_wink: The only problem with that theory is negative energy.

    I agree that the idea of God is not going to be proven, but it doesn't have to be. it's a religious belief. Just like your worldview that the Hubble Sphere that you inhabit is a cold, heartless, meaningless place and that your life in it as no spiritual purpose. That is your religious belief.

  6. #321
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    I can guarantee you that there is no scientific justification for the argument that nothingness preceded the big bang. The rational explanation is that SOMETHING existed, and that an unstable accumulation of energy of some sort triggered the big bang.

    I have not done the research on the subject, but if Guisslap's suggestion of a gravitational singularity does not seem unreasonable to me and my knowledge of energetics.
    So are you saying that there is scientific proof that something did exist before the big bang or are you saying that there are only theories that make more sense to you than the belief that nothingness preceded the big bang?

  7. #322
    Champ saltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your time saltydawg's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    I can guarantee you that there is no scientific justification for the argument that nothingness preceded the big bang. The rational explanation is that SOMETHING existed, and that an unstable accumulation of energy of some sort triggered the big bang.

    I have not done the research on the subject, but if Guisslap's suggestion of a gravitational singularity does not seem unreasonable to me and my knowledge of energetics.
    We don't know what preceded the Big Bang. And who the #### says the universe is rational. The Three Stooges?

  8. #323
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg View Post
    So are you saying that there is scientific proof that something did exist before the big bang or are you saying that there are only theories that make more sense to you than the belief that nothingness preceded the big bang?
    I will let Randy tackle this, but consider this - if Salty is right about the Big Bang creating time the phrase "before the Big Bang" would be a contradiction in terms. "Before" is a description of time.

  9. #324
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    What I am saying is that emotions are kind of like trained reflexes. They are conceptual shortcuts. Your body has the ability to trigger these "feelings" so you don't screw up. I would bet that evolution helped "select for" these abilities. The feelings are a natural part of our biology. The conceptual shortcuts are typically learned. Fundamentally emotions are "triggered" by concepts (that is - the senses don't trigger them directly, but some level of cognition is required to provoke the feeling). Here is more explanation from the epistemology thread:

    A feeling or emotion is a response to an object one perceives (or imagines) such as a man, an animal, an event. The object by itself, however, has no power to invoke a feeling in the observer.

    Emotions are distinct from sensations because a sensation is an experience transmitted by purely physical means – it is independent of a person’s ideas. By contrast love, desire, fear, anger, joy are not simply products of physical stimuli. They depend on the content of the mind.

    Once a man has acquired a vocabulary of conceptual knowledge, he automatizes it, just as one automatizes the knowledge of spelling or any complex skill. Similarly, once a man has formed a series of value-judgments, he automatizes them. He does not need a process of appraisal in order to decide that he values a high grade on a test. One’s value-judgments, like one’s past knowledge, are present in the subconscious – meaning by this term a store of the mental contents one has acquired by conscious means, but which are not in conscious awareness at a given time. Under the appropriate conditions the mind applies such contents to a new object automatically and instantaneously, without the need of further conscious consideration. To many people, as a result, it seems as if men perceive and then feel, with no intervening factor. The truth is that a chain of ideas and value-judgments intervenes.

    Interesting story Peikoff tells:...When, as a college teacher, I would reach the topic of emotions in class, my standard procedure was to open the desk, take out a stack of examination booklets, and, without any explanations, start distributing them. Consternation invariably broke loose, with cries such as "You never said we were having a test today!" and "It isn't fair!" Whereupon I would take back the booklets and ask: "How many can explain the emotion that just swept over you? Is it an inexplicable primary, a quirk of your glands, a message from God or the id?" The answer was obvious. The booklets, to most of them, meant failure on an exam, a lower grade in the course, a blot on their transcript, i.e., bad news. On this one example, even the dullest students grasped with alacrity that emotions do have causes and that their causes are the things men think. (The auditors in the room, who do not write exams, remained calm during this experiment. To them, the surprise involved no negative value-judgment.)...

    An emotion derives from a percept assessed within a context; the context is defined by a highly complex conceptual content. Most of this content at any time is not present in the conscious awareness. But it is real and operative nonetheless. What makes emotions incomprehensible to many people is the fact that their ideas are not only largely subconscious, but also inconsistent. Men have the ability to accept contradictions without knowing it. This leads to the appearance of CONFLICT between thought and feelings.

    Emotions are not inexplicable demons, though they become that if a man holds contradictions and does not identify his ideas explicitly. Even then, the cause of emotions remains the same. Strictly speaking, a “clash between thought and feeling” is a misnomer – every such clash is at root and ideational clash.
    From my experience, that is totally false. First, the Peikoff experiment is a terrible example. Of course the students experienced what they did because they had had experiences before with "pop" quizzes and exams, I'm sure. So, it's not like they were experiencing this situation for the first time. Naturally, the auditing students weren't worried because they knew from their experience that they weren't getting graded. You still haven't answered my question of the reason for the initial response. The very first time that the very first someone felt fear or elation or envy, etc...how do you account for that since there was no initial percept or concept or experience to relate it to?

  10. #325
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by saltydawg View Post
    The only problem with that theory is negative energy.
    Salty - have you ever read beyond the introductory chapter in any textbook?

  11. #326
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtydawg View Post
    The very first time that the very first someone felt fear or elation or envy, etc...how do you account for that since there was no initial percept or concept or experience to relate it to?
    The same way you learned to use your hands to move food to your mouth the first time.

  12. #327
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    I will let Randy tackle this, but consider this - if Salty is right about the Big Bang creating time the phrase "before the Big Bang" would be a contradiction in terms. "Before" is a description of time.
    Now you're just dealing in semantics which is the problem with philosophy. Philosophers create terms to put human definitions on things that are not human. What is time but a word of when when is, and how can we know that that when is really the beginning of existence and not that there isn't some other when that the when we know is dependent on?

  13. #328
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    What I am saying is that emotions are kind of like trained reflexes. They are conceptual shortcuts. Your body has the ability to trigger these "feelings" so you don't screw up. I would bet that evolution helped "select for" these abilities. The feelings are a natural part of our biology. The conceptual shortcuts are typically learned. Fundamentally emotions are "triggered" by concepts (that is - the senses don't trigger them directly, but some level of cognition is required to provoke the feeling). Here is more explanation from the epistemology thread:

    A feeling or emotion is a response to an object one perceives (or imagines) such as a man, an animal, an event. The object by itself, however, has no power to invoke a feeling in the observer.

    Emotions are distinct from sensations because a sensation is an experience transmitted by purely physical means – it is independent of a person’s ideas. By contrast love, desire, fear, anger, joy are not simply products of physical stimuli. They depend on the content of the mind.


    Once a man has acquired a vocabulary of conceptual knowledge, he automatizes it, just as one automatizes the knowledge of spelling or any complex skill. Similarly, once a man has formed a series of value-judgments, he automatizes them. He does not need a process of appraisal in order to decide that he values a high grade on a test. One’s value-judgments, like one’s past knowledge, are present in the subconscious – meaning by this term a store of the mental contents one has acquired by conscious means, but which are not in conscious awareness at a given time. Under the appropriate conditions the mind applies such contents to a new object automatically and instantaneously, without the need of further conscious consideration. To many people, as a result, it seems as if men perceive and then feel, with no intervening factor. The truth is that a chain of ideas and value-judgments intervenes.

    Interesting story Peikoff tells:...When, as a college teacher, I would reach the topic of emotions in class, my standard procedure was to open the desk, take out a stack of examination booklets, and, without any explanations, start distributing them. Consternation invariably broke loose, with cries such as "You never said we were having a test today!" and "It isn't fair!" Whereupon I would take back the booklets and ask: "How many can explain the emotion that just swept over you? Is it an inexplicable primary, a quirk of your glands, a message from God or the id?" The answer was obvious. The booklets, to most of them, meant failure on an exam, a lower grade in the course, a blot on their transcript, i.e., bad news. On this one example, even the dullest students grasped with alacrity that emotions do have causes and that their causes are the things men think. (The auditors in the room, who do not write exams, remained calm during this experiment. To them, the surprise involved no negative value-judgment.)...

    An emotion derives from a percept assessed within a context; the context is defined by a highly complex conceptual content. Most of this content at any time is not present in the conscious awareness. But it is real and operative nonetheless. What makes emotions incomprehensible to many people is the fact that their ideas are not only largely subconscious, but also inconsistent. Men have the ability to accept contradictions without knowing it. This leads to the appearance of CONFLICT between thought and feelings.

    Emotions are not inexplicable demons, though they become that if a man holds contradictions and does not identify his ideas explicitly. Even then, the cause of emotions remains the same. Strictly speaking, a “clash between thought and feeling” is a misnomer – every such clash is at root and ideational clash.
    In the example DD gave, I would submit that instincts play a key role in producing the emotion of fear. Past generations of homo sapiens have experience the attacks of tigers for 100,000s of years. This knowledge becomes imprinted on the brain, below the conscious level. Mice, even if they have never seen a snake before, are terribly afraid of them.

  14. #329
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    The same way you learned to use your hands to move food to your mouth the first time.
    Nope. That's a physical experience and action. You've already stated in the knowledge thread that emotions are creations of the mind that are given definitions once we learned words to relate that experience to the physical experience it is related to.

  15. #330
    Champ saltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your timesaltydawg Ultimate jerk and not worth your time saltydawg's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Get Metaphysical Baby

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Salty - have you ever read beyond the introductory chapter in any textbook?
    Are you telling me that you have never heard of negative energy?

    http://www.starbreezes.com/neg.html

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