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Thread: Yet another abortion thread...

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    Yet another abortion thread...

    I started this thread because it combines two main topics about abortion taken from the two most recent threads on that topic. I think it is important after hearing a comment by none other than Bill O’Reilly when referring to immigration. Forgive me for being long-winded.

    Why is abortion a major issue to conservatives like me? To answer that, I have to describe our position. Conservatives like me consider unborn babies living human beings. We have different reasons to believe this. For me, it was the premature birth of my daughter Grace. (Pictured in my avatar) I think about the defense of late term abortions and can’t help but think that for the first few weeks of my daughters life, she could be legally killed if it weren’t for her location relative to my wife’s belly. I’ve also met a baby given up for adoption and accepted her as my sister. So I’ve pulled what has been called a parasite from my wife’s birth canal and welcomed an unwanted fetus into my immediate family. So when I hear about abortion, my mind fills with images of those closest to me.

    This brings me to the first topic I want to address. Some of the people arguing for abortion are arguing for a principle where we are arguing for the defense of living children. It is impossible to have that position and not be emotional in its defense. It frustrates me to read the dry, emotionless, theoretical application of ethics when the other side of the argument is coming from people who are basing their feelings on personal experience. It actually angers me to see the dictionary definition of parasite posted in such an argument because I don’t have to enter “define: parasite” in Google to see my daughter’s face the first time I held her.

    The second topic I want to address is that it is perfectly acceptable for people who feel this way to consider abortion the most important topic in American politics. Simply put, if your position is that abortion is the murder of a child, it has to be important to you. Surely, even if you are against abortion, you would be angry if the U.S. government allowed anyone aged less than 1 year could be legally killed. We see this as the same thing: killing a baby. We aren’t hijacking a religion (I haven’t mentioned Christianity once in this post) or manipulating politics, we are doing what we have to do considering our belief.

    Hopefully this post has conveyed the reason for the emotional nature of conservatives when discussing abortion as well as reiterated my personal position. I hope that I have at least given understanding to some of my opponents of this subject. So feel free to defend the principle of abortion while I, and those like me, defend the victim. However, my position will not be changed by a principle because your principle will never have a face as beautiful as my daughter Grace’s.

  2. #2
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by duckbillplatty View Post
    I started this thread because it combines two main topics about abortion taken from the two most recent threads on that topic. I think it is important after hearing a comment by none other than Bill O’Reilly when referring to immigration. Forgive me for being long-winded.

    Why is abortion a major issue to conservatives like me? To answer that, I have to describe our position. Conservatives like me consider unborn babies living human beings. We have different reasons to believe this. For me, it was the premature birth of my daughter Grace. (Pictured in my avatar) I think about the defense of late term abortions and can’t help but think that for the first few weeks of my daughters life, she could be legally killed if it weren’t for her location relative to my wife’s belly. I’ve also met a baby given up for adoption and accepted her as my sister. So I’ve pulled what has been called a parasite from my wife’s birth canal and welcomed an unwanted fetus into my immediate family. So when I hear about abortion, my mind fills with images of those closest to me.

    This brings me to the first topic I want to address. Some of the people arguing for abortion are arguing for a principle where we are arguing for the defense of living children. It is impossible to have that position and not be emotional in its defense. It frustrates me to read the dry, emotionless, theoretical application of ethics when the other side of the argument is coming from people who are basing their feelings on personal experience. It actually angers me to see the dictionary definition of parasite posted in such an argument because I don’t have to enter “define: parasite” in Google to see my daughter’s face the first time I held her.

    The second topic I want to address is that it is perfectly acceptable for people who feel this way to consider abortion the most important topic in American politics. Simply put, if your position is that abortion is the murder of a child, it has to be important to you. Surely, even if you are against abortion, you would be angry if the U.S. government allowed anyone aged less than 1 year could be legally killed. We see this as the same thing: killing a baby. We aren’t hijacking a religion (I haven’t mentioned Christianity once in this post) or manipulating politics, we are doing what we have to do considering our belief.

    Hopefully this post has conveyed the reason for the emotional nature of conservatives when discussing abortion as well as reiterated my personal position. I hope that I have at least given understanding to some of my opponents of this subject. So feel free to defend the principle of abortion while I, and those like me, defend the victim. However, my position will not be changed by a principle because your principle will never have a face as beautiful as my daughter Grace’s.
    I fully understand that there is an emotional attachment. I just think that the emotional connection you have with your child prevents you from making appropriate distinctions. Specifically:

    1) A fetus is not a unique person (with respect to ethics) until it is out of the mother. Simply, it exists as part of another. One cannot easily draw a line to separate the mother from the fetus.
    2) A fetus is not making reasoned choices. It can't - it's environment strongly dominates everything about it. When it exits the womb, it is finally given the driving force to develop rationality, to change its environment, etc. That is the point when its life is legally protectable.

    If you want to see the other emotional side of the debate, go find a family in which the mother tried to take a fetus to term, only to die from complications of childbirth. There are certainly other cases to be made, but I'll leave it at that and say only that emotions flow on both sides.

    I also wander, is it only true that republicans can be so "conservative" with respect to most social issues because they have not been seriously exposed to the other side? If you had a homosexual brother, do you think your views would be different on that issue? Would you become equally emotional in defending equality for homosexuals as you currently are over abortion?

  3. #3
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Why is murdering a living being wrong?
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  4. #4
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by randerizer View Post
    1) A fetus is not a unique person (with respect to ethics) until it is out of the mother. Simply, it exists as part of another. One cannot easily draw a line to separate the mother from the fetus.
    2) A fetus is not making reasoned choices. It can't - it's environment strongly dominates everything about it. When it exits the womb, it is finally given the driving force to develop rationality, to change its environment, etc. That is the point when its life is legally protectable.

    If you want to see the other emotional side of the debate, go find a family in which the mother tried to take a fetus to term, only to die from complications of childbirth. There are certainly other cases to be made, but I'll leave it at that and say only that emotions flow on both sides.
    As you know, I'm one of the most liberal people on the board, but I dont agree with abortion. It has nothing to do with my faith, but rather the fact that I do think a fetus deserves every amount of protection an infant has.

    Why? Let's look at your #1: A fetus is not a unique person until it leaves the womb. So even up until the second before it begins to emerge, it should be able to be aborted, because it isnt a real person? What about a minute before? a day? a month?

    They key here is when does life begin? I hate to tell you, but it's not like life magically begins as soon as you leave the womb. Life has been happening for the entire 9 months. And since life doesnt just magically begin the instant you leave the womb, it must begin inside the womb.

    Now, I know a collection of a few hundred cells doesnt constitute life. My reasoning for being against abortion, is that those few hundred cells WOULD become life if left to the natural cycle. ANd I believe it is wrong to take away that life.

    Here's some common attacks I receive for my positions:

    "Those few hundred cells wouldnt develop naturally outside of the womb, so it's still considered just a part ofthe woman's body"

    My reply: So? A 3 month old baby wouldnt survive without any care either. Even after being born, that mass of cells needs someone to take care of it. It's not like the mother just lets the baby go free to wander on its own as soon as it's born. It still needs care. So what's the difference between caring for a baby outside the womb, and the mother's body naturally caring for the fetus that WILL become a baby inside the womb?

    "Sperm could fertilize an egg and become a baby. Does that mean we should throw every guy who masturbates into jail for murder?"

    Reply: My sperm isnt going to just form into a baby if I dont ejaculate for 9 months though. WHen a sperm fertilizes an egg, that WILL become a baby- a living, breathing life form.

    "It wont always become a baby. What about miscarirages?"

    Reply: Great. Then that jus solves the problem of not wanting a baby in the first place, doesnt it? But in most normal cases, when that egg is fertilized, it WILL become a life.


    I have always been confused as hell that liberals dont seem to think life happens until after birth. They'll protect prisoners from being killed on death row, but not innocent unborn babies. This has always been the one issue where I have no clue how you can think it's a "woman's choice". It's not her choice, because there is another LIVING BEING inside of her. Choosing to abort it becuase you dont want it is just like throwing your 2 month old in a dumpster and leaving it to die.


    Now, in the case where a mother's life is endangered, or the pregnancy is due to rape, I believe abortion should be allowed. I know it's a hard choice for any person to choose between their life, or their unborn babies, but I would not think less of anyone who chooses to get an abortion in the event that childbirth would endanger their life. And in the case of rape, it wasnt the woman's choice.

    Granted, when some drunk college chick gives it up without a condom and gets pregnant, she's not choosing to get pregnant either. But I dont think abortion should be allowed as a way out for being irresponsible. A rape victim wasnt impregnated because of being irresponsible. Whereas a girl who has sex without a condom IS being irresponsible (on many levels). And she shouldnt be allowed to end an innocent life just because she doesnt feel like dealing with the consequences of her actions.

    So there you go. Thats why I dont agree with abortion. And it has nothing to do with God, or the soul, or my being Catholic. It's my opinion based on logic.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Still-born babies are issued death cirtificates.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    Still-born babies are issued death cirtificates.
    OK
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    OK
    Just thought I'd throw that out there. I refuse to invest much more of my time into this "debate". I didn't know about still-born babies getting DCs. Probably just a sign of the immoral way our country operates...:icon_wink:
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    one problem I've seen with debating abortion is that no matter how many non-religious and logic-based arguments people provide, all it takes is one guy to come along and say something about god or something, and all the pro-choice people will hone in on that one reply and act like it totally invalidates ALL arguments for pro-life.

    (not saying that will happen here, but I've seen it happen plenty of times)
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Why is murdering a living being wrong?
    Is anyone going to answer this "simple" question? It appears that the entirety of the anti-abortion position relies on this ethical proposition.
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Is anyone going to answer this "simple" question? It appears that the entirety of the anti-abortion position relies on this ethical proposition.
    Nope...I must resist...can't.

    The entirety of the anti-abortion position relies on the ethical proposition that it's wrong to murder a living HUMAN fetus. I killed a spider a few seconds ago...no biggie.
    Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle

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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    Nope...I must resist...can't.

    The entirety of the anti-abortion position relies on the ethical proposition that it's wrong to murder a living HUMAN fetus. I killed a spider a few seconds ago...no biggie.
    OK, then, why is it wrong to murder a living human fetus?
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    OK, then, why is it wrong to murder a living human fetus?
    Because it's wrong to murder a human infant and there's no propper dividing line between the two. As science progresses, the dependence upon the mother is becoming more and more a circumstance as upposed to a necessity. When there is no propper defining line, the right to life must trump the right of convenience.

    I'm done. Quite trying to get me to respond. Go back and look through the 9000 pages on the SC thread.

    :icon_wink:
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    Because it's wrong to murder a human infant and there's no propper dividing line between the two. As science progresses, the dependence upon the mother is becoming more and more a circumstance as upposed to a necessity. When there is no propper defining line, the right to life must trump the right of convenience.

    I'm done. Quite trying to get me to respond. Go back and look through the 9000 pages on the SC thread.

    :icon_wink:
    Why is it wrong to murder an infant?
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  14. #14
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guisslapp View Post
    Why is it wrong to murder an infant?
    I see that you are trying to take this down the road of "rights". Clearly, we disagree on this issue. The beautiful thing is, I don't have to go there to prove that, in this country (and in most) abortion should be illegal. I'll stick to that argument until you get infanticide legalized.

    **Remember my comments about how these concepts were for the classroom and would be useless in the real world. This is the perfect example.
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    Re: Yet another abortion thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnylightnin View Post
    I see that you are trying to take this down the road of "rights". Clearly, we disagree on this issue. The beautiful thing is, I don't have to go there to prove that, in this country (and in most) abortion should be illegal. I'll stick to that argument until you get infanticide legalized.

    **Remember my comments about how these concepts were for the classroom and would be useless in the real world. This is the perfect example.
    You are avoiding the question. Can someone provide a reason why "murdering" a human fetus is wrong? I am not even asking whether it should be legal/illegal yet.
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