"It's about the Economy Stupid"

[Spinoza]

Salty, I don't remember where your Clinton balanced budget comment was in this thread but "Clinton was the only President to pay down the debt" is patently false. Clinton did not pay the debt down. The statistics could be seen on the National Debt Clock during every year Clinton was in office. Not a single day during Clinton's term did the debt go down. The last President to truly pay the debt down was none other than Andrew Jackson, who was able to do so in part because he had the guts to tell the advocates of the National Bank to go to Hell.

Yet many a modern Democrat believes the lie that Clinton actually paid down the debt. There was a balanced budget during Clinton's administration, but why did that happen? It would not have occurred had Republicans not been insistent to the point of shutting the government down to ensure that it actually happened. In the meantime, Clinton blamed Republicans for the shutdown that ultimately resulted in the balanced budget that he later tried to take all the credit for.

For the life of me I still can't remember a single positive thing that Clinton did for this country. It's kind of like Hillary tauting her record. Doing what????

Not that it now actually matters......
With the MASSIVE FEDERAL DEBT little george has saddled America with over the last 6+ years......
But I have a clear memory of a news story that showed the NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK beginning to run backwards for the first time ever during the Slick Willie watch.

So one of us is error about what no longer matters.
I have no doubt, however, that some computer savvy dawg will be able to "hyperlink" all the needed FACTS.

BTW #1......
Are you AGAIN trying to rationalize/justify ALL THE NEW little george DEBT by asserting that Willie simply failed to reduce it?

Here's my memory for another "hyperlink" challenge......
8 years of ronnie equaled 2 BILLION in new national debt.
4 years of papa george equaled 1 BILLION in new national debt.
8 years of Willie equaled ZERO BILLION in new national debt.
@7 years of little george has equalled MORE NATIONAL DEBT than even a staunch ronnie economist could have dreamed of in his worst fiscal nightmare.

BTW #2......
Why did your allegedly responsible fiscal republican lads do so well with Willie...... And FAIL SO UTTERLY with little george?

BTW #3......
It is my understanding/memory that the NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK was removed from public view during little george's first fiscal watch.
Is that TRUE?
And if so...... I'd truly enjoy reading your research/slant on the details. :icon_wink:

Cheers.

[daybreaker2]

And if so...... I'd truly enjoy reading your research/slant on the details. :icon_wink:

You'll get more slant than research

[saltydawg]

Interesting economic developments today. The Fed lows the interest rate by another quarter % and the price of oil reaches a new high of $94+ a barrel. Another wave of inflation is about to hit next year.

[Spinoza]

I just hope the credit crunch doesnt affect us creditworthy people. Like Randy or Guiss said, you dont want there to not be a credit market and the pangs from this credit crunch could make that happen. That would definitely fall under crisis.

The dollar is in the toilet. This cycle of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul has to stop. Actually, it is more like borrowing from foreign countries to pay other foreign countries. It is a nasty cycle. An individual could not do this for very long, pay credit off with other credit before they would be in over their heads and have to declare bankruptcy. Our government thinks they can get away with it, but it is starting to hit us through inflation. There is going to be a breaking point. You either have to print more money (leading to inflation) or default on debt (not gonna happen, but can you imagine interest rates if our government was considered risky?). That would be quite a fubar, banks wont lend out with interest rates as low as they are, imagine if the government interest rates had to go to 14% for other countries to leave their money here. Once again, wont happen. We will just print money until the dollar is worthless, thus driving off foreign investors much the same. Either way, I have to think that our government will ahve to offer a higher interest rate if foreigners are going to keep putting their money here.

Oil prices are also being driven by Turkeys conflict with Kurdish rebels, another supply concern along with IRAN. Like Randy said, you never want sudden supply shortage to be the problem. Because only one thing will fix that problem, MUCH HIGHER PRICES. Demand driven usually means progress and never gives you sudden shock quite as much as supply driven.

IMNHO......
ALL discussions and opinions are interesting in some manner......
But FACTS ARE NEVER ALTERED by subjective preference.

Consider the following and draw any personal conclusion that comforts or irritates any private economy or American PRIDE.

The price of a barrel of oil when hanging chads handed little george the oval office...... Then and now.
The price at the pump...... Then and now.
Annual BIG OIL PROFITS...... Then and now.
The NATIONAL DEBT...... Then and now.
Tax responsibility by income...... Then and now.
Corporate employment v. corporate outsourcing...... then and now.
The Chinese "communist" economy...... Then and now.
Trade deficits...... Then and now.
America's military readiness...... Then and now.
America's dead and maimed military...... Then and now.
Any search for Osama bin Laden...... Then and now.
The conquest of international TERRORISM...... Then and now.
Any Middle East security/stability...... Then and now.
American diplomacy...... Then and now.
American prestige on the international stage...... Then and now.
The value of the American Dollar...... Then and now.
The threat of inflation...... Then and now.
Illegal aliens flooding American soil...... Then and now.
Federal ALIEN AID...... Then and now.
Political/financial scandals...... Then and now.
Questions/documetation of American torture...... Then and now.
Home ownership/mortgage security...... Then and now.
College debt...... Then and now.
Personal American DEBT...... Then and now.
Bankruptcy protection...... Then and now.
Americans living in poverty...... Then and now.
Any "patriot act" poppycock...... Then and now.
American freedoms and rights...... Then and now.
Constitutional integrity...... Then and now.
THE MEANING OF AMERICA...... THEN AND NOW!
Americans without health insurance...... Then and now.

There's more......
There's always more......
But I am too weary to worry about the rest if the above fails to stir the seeds of any private protest.

Cheers to all and good night.

[Spinoza]

You'll get more slant than research

FAIR ENOUGH......
From a fellow who has never denied that HIS SLANT is routinely willing to corrupt FACTS whenever subjectively possible.

Fortunately......
There are certain FACTS IN CONTEXT that will always SCREAM THEIR WORTH, without my consent or the folly of other such fools.

I have no qualms about eating dirt...... As long as I LEARN from any such experience.

May you never know the reality of not having more cold beer at hand than you could possibly drink on either a sad or festive occasion.

Now seriously......
I'm outta here for now.

Cheers.

[Bigdog13]

FAIR ENOUGH......
From a fellow who has never denied that HIS SLANT is routinely willing to corrupt FACTS whenever subjectively possible.

Fortunately......
There are certain FACTS IN CONTEXT that will always SCREAM THEIR WORTH, without my consent or the folly of other such fools.

I have no qualms about eating dirt...... As long as I LEARN from any such experience.

May you never know the reality of not having more cold beer at hand than you could possibly drink on either a sad or festive occasion.

Now seriously......
I'm outta here for now.

Cheers.

Good to see you back Mr. Spinoza.

[randerizer]

Iran and Iraq produce less than 6% combined of the world's oil, less than the combination of Canada and Mexico and less than Russia alone. I wonder if the mobilization of China is bringing up the price or if the improvements in communication are just allowing the gas companies to work together (or some combination).

Good statistics. But I don't think you are giving enough credit to the fact that our presence/agression towards Iran/Iraq creates added instability for other OPEC members as well.

Also, I think it helps my point that Citgo gasoline isn't cheaper than the other gasoline. Since Citgo comes entirely from Venezuela, it is totally unaffected by any Iran influence.

Oil trade is at least in parts a "futures" trading. If you suspect that availability of oil will go down in the near future, the price of oil you can get now goes up. So, I'd say that our posturing with Iran suggests added instability in the middle east. In general, that ripples into all parts of the Middle East, and causes a run up in price.

Citgo just gets to take advantage of the higher price of gasoline created, in part, by worldwide rising oil prices. :icon_wink: If OPEC nations cut production and there is a run up in price, EVERYONE selling oil (or refining their own raw material) benefits in terms of the price point.

...and PS, you got LUCKY in Week 6, but it won't happen again.

If you say so. How do you think you're going to do when both your studs are on bye at the same time? :icon_wink:

[Abominable Gorilla]

Good statistics. But I don't think you are giving enough credit to the fact that our presence/agression towards Iran/Iraq creates added instability for other OPEC members as well.

The entire middle east produces less than 25% of the US oil and a large chunk of that is from Saudi Arabia whom is not affected by our aggression. I see what you're saying and I agree with the intellegence of your points, but then I look at the soaring record profits made by companies like ExxonMobil and I can't believe the price jump of gasoline is due to any conflict in the Middle East.

Oil trade is at least in parts a "futures" trading.

That is very true, indeed. You have to pay for the next batch.

Citgo just gets to take advantage of the higher price of gasoline created, in part, by worldwide rising oil prices. :icon_wink: If OPEC nations cut production and there is a run up in price, EVERYONE selling oil (or refining their own raw material) benefits in terms of the price point.

Yes, but that helps my point. Citgo is not influenced by Middle East oil, but their prices went up because they knew we would pay. And, since we'll continue to pay higher and higher prices, we can expect the market to continue to rise. Unfortunately, the price of gasoline was under the fair market value and it is only just now adjusting.

I am beginning to hypothesize that even if we did build additional refining, gas companies have learned what we'll pay and will see no reason to lower gas prices.


If you say so. How do you think you're going to do when both your studs are on bye at the same time? :icon_wink:

I absolutely knew that Tom Brady and Randy Moss were going to explode this year and it will be worth it to take a hit on that week to have both of it. Besides, with Kevin Jones getting back, I might have enough depth to be ok.

I have to write something here because it says my message is too short.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

OPEC says pumping more won't bring oil price down

Published: October 30, 2007


By James Kanter and Alison Smale





LONDON: Representatives from top oil producing countries Tuesday blamed the steady advance of oil toward $100 a barrel on a combination of financial speculation, geopolitical instability and a shortfall in refining capacity.
The president of OPEC, Mohammed bin Dhaen al-Hamli, who is also the oil minister of the United Arab Emirates, pledged to keep markets amply supplied. But at an oil industry conference in London, he said there was only so much OPEC could do in the current circumstances to keep a lid on prices.
"Increasingly oil markets are being driven by forces beyond OPEC's control, such as geopolitical events and the growing influence of financial investors," Hamli said. "We are of course concerned about the high level of oil prices."
He declined to say if, or when, the price of oil would reach $100, but he noted that OPEC members already had decided last month to increase output by 500,000 barrels a day from Nov. 1.
Heads of state of OPEC members will be meeting next month in Riyadh. But Hamli said there were no plans currently to raise output at that meeting.



http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/30/business/oil.php

Other participants at the Oil & Money conference, co-sponsored by the International Herald Tribune, cited the need for a massive input of expertise to maintain steady oil supplies in years ahead, as the search for new sources becomes more challenging.
Both Andrew Gould, president and chief executive of Schlumberger, and Robert Dudley, president and chief executive of TNK-BP, noted in different presentations that the business of extracting ever less accessible fossil fuels would involve not only new technologies, but the training of a new class of engineers, geologists and physicists.
"The easy oil is over, the difficult oil is what is left," Dudley said.
Through TNK-BP's work in Russia, he added, "we are creating a new group of world-class Russian geologists."
Gould cited a new research facility financed by Schlumberger in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, near King Fahd university, as an example of how new groups of people - not necessarily the predominantly Western oilmen of old - were now engaged in a fresh quest for oil and natural gas.

Let's see, DR and TECH dropped it's Pet Eng and Geology degrees a number of years back. Real bright huh??

[TYLERTECHSAS]

AP
China Hikes Fuel Prices Amid Shortages
Thursday November 1, 7:40 am ET
By Joe Mcdonald, AP Business Writer China Hikes Fuel Prices As Long Lines Form at Gas Pumps and Shortages Disrupt Trucking

BEIJING (AP) -- China raised gasoline and diesel prices Thursday by about 10 percent to curb demand amid shortages that have caused long lines at filling stations and disrupted trucking in key export areas.

Oil companies have blamed the shortages, which began last week, on a lack of refining capacity. Government controls have forced refiners to pay the difference between soaring market prices for crude and lower retail prices at the pump. Some refiners responded by cutting output.


For rest of story:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071101/china...ices.html?.v=9

[Spinoza]

Good to see you back Mr. Spinoza.

Not quite "back"......
But I am now able to allow myself multiple bottles of beers after sundown, and enjoy a bit of relaxation and recreation.

Cheers.

[FishingBack]

IMNHO......
ALL discussions and opinions are interesting in some manner......
But FACTS ARE NEVER ALTERED by subjective preference.

Consider the following and draw any personal conclusion that comforts or irritates any private economy or American PRIDE.

The price of a barrel of oil when hanging chads handed little george the oval office...... Then and now.
The price at the pump...... Then and now.
Annual BIG OIL PROFITS...... Then and now.
The NATIONAL DEBT...... Then and now.
Tax responsibility by income...... Then and now.
Corporate employment v. corporate outsourcing...... then and now.
The Chinese "communist" economy...... Then and now.
Trade deficits...... Then and now.
America's military readiness...... Then and now.
America's dead and maimed military...... Then and now.
Any search for Osama bin Laden...... Then and now.
The conquest of international TERRORISM...... Then and now.
Any Middle East security/stability...... Then and now.
American diplomacy...... Then and now.
American prestige on the international stage...... Then and now.
The value of the American Dollar...... Then and now.
The threat of inflation...... Then and now.
Illegal aliens flooding American soil...... Then and now.
Federal ALIEN AID...... Then and now.
Political/financial scandals...... Then and now.
Questions/documetation of American torture...... Then and now.
Home ownership/mortgage security...... Then and now.
College debt...... Then and now.
Personal American DEBT...... Then and now.
Bankruptcy protection...... Then and now.
Americans living in poverty...... Then and now.
Any "patriot act" poppycock...... Then and now.
American freedoms and rights...... Then and now.
Constitutional integrity...... Then and now.
THE MEANING OF AMERICA...... THEN AND NOW!
Americans without health insurance...... Then and now.

There's more......
There's always more......
But I am too weary to worry about the rest if the above fails to stir the seeds of any private protest.

Cheers to all and good night.

I just thought I'd say that many many many items you listed had nothing to do with ANYTHING "W" did or did not do. It was also Clintion jumping all over the success of the economy when he had nothing to do with it.

Interesting that some people are outraged over the cost of oil and want to blame G-G-George.

Why is oil high? INDIA and CHINA. I'm sure I've discussed this before. If somebody wants to offer an islamo fascist 2.71 per gallon instead of 1.07 who do you think they're going to sell it to?

In recent history these countries weren't industrialized but now they are. The demand will only increase and prices per barrel will only increase. I doesn't matter who we elect, unless they are going to nuke the industrialized world to keep demand down. I know you like to call political poppycock and I think this time it came from you.

[saltydawg]

I just thought I'd say that many many many items you listed had nothing to do with ANYTHING "W" did or did not do. It was also Clintion jumping all over the success of the economy when he had nothing to do with it.

Interesting that some people are outraged over the cost of oil and want to blame G-G-George.

Why is oil high? INDIA and CHINA. I'm sure I've discussed this before. If somebody wants to offer an islamo fascist 2.71 per gallon instead of 1.07 who do you think they're going to sell it to?

In recent history these countries weren't industrialized but now they are. The demand will only increase and prices per barrel will only increase. I doesn't matter who we elect, unless they are going to nuke the industrialized world to keep demand down. I know you like to call political poppycock and I think this time it came from you.

In the international market, oil is priced and traded in US dollars. As our irresponsible fiscal policies have devalued the US dollar over the past 6 years, the price of oil in US DOLLARS has gone up. Same as for gold. If you have swiss francs or EUROS, the price of oil has risen only about 2/3 as much as it appears to us.

[JuBru]

In the international market, oil is priced and traded in US dollars. As our irresponsible fiscal policies have devalued the US dollar over the past 6 years, the price of oil in US DOLLARS has gone up. Same as for gold. If you have swiss francs or EUROS, the price of oil has risen only about 2/3 as much as it appears to us.

A U.S. Dollar is still a U.S. dollar... how does the value change with currency it is not tied to and if oil is tied to the dollar and not the money of the country producing the oil???

[randerizer]

A U.S. Dollar is still a U.S. dollar... how does the value change with currency it is not tied to and if oil is tied to the dollar and not the money of the country producing the oil???

I can't follow that sentence for some reason. FYI, Salty is right on this. The US dollar is being devalued much faster than other currencies around the world. Why? Because we are printing so many new bills (thanks FRB and deficit spending President/Congress). As a result, the value of the dollar (bang for the buck) is going down.

In other countries, the price of oil is rising (for a bunch of reasons, including the added consumption of China and India increasing demand). However, if companies/people in other countries are holding onto their own currencies instead of the dollar, it is cheaper for them to oil trade.

As a separate issue, it is probably only a matter of time before the dollar ceases to be an appropriate international currency for exchange. It will be like buying oil in pesos. :icon_wink: I expect the pound, the euro, the yen, or maybe just gold to be the primary international exchange currency within the next 10 years.