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    Rules question

    Okay Doc, I'm sure you are all over this, but here goes...

    The batter bunts down first base line. Catcher picks up the ball inside fair territory and tries to make the throw to first, but the runner is running inside the line (fair territory) toward first. The first baseman's view is obstructed by the runner and is not able to make the catch.

    I know what I was taught as a player, but was amazed at the number of people I asked who didn't know the proper play for the catcher to make or the actual rule that applies. I was especially surprised that the umpire calling the game didn't know the rule.

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    Re: Rules question

    What call did the umpire make?

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    Re: Rules question

    The runner should be out.

    Another rules question. Man on first with less than 2 outs. A ground ball is hit to short and the double play is attempted. Does the runner going to second have to slide? If he does not slide and the throw from second to first hits the runner, is the runner and the batter out?
    Or, is just the runner out and the batter gets first base?
    Go Tech!

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    The runner should be out.

    Another rules question. Man on first with less than 2 outs. A ground ball is hit to short and the double play is attempted. Does the runner going to second have to slide? If he does not slide and the throw from second to first hits the runner, is the runner and the batter out?
    Or, is just the runner out and the batter gets first base?
    I'll take a stab...Interesting

    Does the runner have to slide? I don't think he has to slide, but he can't make an attempt to obstruct the throw to 1st. I'm pretty sure that he has to make an attempt to avoid the throw. Now the runner who was already out was called for interference. I'm guessing that the batter would be called out due to the interference.

    BTW, they never call this one in MLB. The slide area in MLB is closer to 8ft. than 6ft..

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    I'll take a stab...Interesting

    Does the runner have to slide? I don't think he has to slide, but he can't make an attempt to obstruct the throw to 1st. I'm pretty sure that he has to make an attempt to avoid the throw. Now the runner who was already out was called for interference. I'm guessing that the batter would be called out due to the interference.

    BTW, they never call this one in MLB. The slide area in MLB is closer to 8ft. than 6ft..
    You're interpretation is what I have always thought, too. The reason I bring it up is that a high school umpire once told me the batter is not out if the throw from second to first hits the runner.
    Go Tech!

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    You're interpretation is what I have always thought, too. The reason I bring it up is that a high school umpire once told me the batter is not out if the throw from second to first hits the runner.
    Here ya go Tulsa...

    It is interference by a batter or a runner when --
    (a) After a third strike he hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball;
    (b) Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making a play at home base; the runner is out;
    (c) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates;
    (d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;
    Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.
    (e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by CajunDave1 View Post
    What call did the umpire make?
    The first baseman missed the ball going to 1st because they couldn't see it coming. When interference was argued with the umpire, the ump said no interference. Runner safe.

    There's still more to this scenario. Anybody?

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    The first baseman missed the ball going to 1st because they couldn't see it coming. When interference was argued with the umpire, the ump said no interference. Runner safe.

    There's still more to this scenario. Anybody?
    Since the ball did not hit the runner, I am going to say it is up to the umpires judgment as to whether the runner intentionally tried to interfere with the throw. The umpire judged the runner did not intentionally interfere, so the batter is safe.

    In any case, the catcher should, if possible, step into the infield more to make the throw and the 1st baseman (or 2nd baseman covering first) should also lean into the infield to take the throw.
    Go Tech!

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    Okay Doc, I'm sure you are all over this, but here goes...

    The batter bunts down first base line. Catcher picks up the ball inside fair territory and tries to make the throw to first, but the runner is running inside the line (fair territory) toward first. The first baseman's view is obstructed by the runner and is not able to make the catch.

    I know what I was taught as a player, but was amazed at the number of people I asked who didn't know the proper play for the catcher to make or the actual rule that applies. I was especially surprised that the umpire calling the game didn't know the rule.

    Here is your solution, on 90 ft bases, there is suppost to be a hash designating the 45 ft mark. All runners when reaching this point are to be in foul territory while running to first base. If the runner is not in foul territory and the catcher throws to first but hits the runner, then the runner is called out.

    But what you stated is true and sad, there are many umpires that do not know this rule which at times changes the outcome of a ballgame.

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by Haughtondawg View Post
    Here is your solution, on 90 ft bases, there is suppost to be a hash designating the 45 ft mark. All runners when reaching this point are to be in foul territory while running to first base. If the runner is not in foul territory and the catcher throws to first but hits the runner, then the runner is called out.

    But what you stated is true and sad, there are many umpires that do not know this rule which at times changes the outcome of a ballgame.
    But the throw didn't hit the runner. It wasn't caught because the runner impeded the first baseman's view. Now what?

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    Re: Rules question

    It is a judgement call for the umpire to make. I was taught as a catcher to try to hit the runner with the ball to remove any doubt as to the runner actually interfering. If the runner was in fair territory then they would be out. Otherwise if they are on the line or inside the three foot box (that Haughtondawg described) then they would be safe.

    In the case I described the umpire should have recognized that the runner was interfering and in fair territory (not inside the three ft area), but had the catcher hit the runner with the ball then there would not have been a question. Tulsa you are partially correct, except that any umpire worth his salt should always be ready to make this call in bunting situations and the "judgement" would not be so hard to arrive at.

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    Okay Doc, I'm sure you are all over this, but here goes...

    The batter bunts down first base line. Catcher picks up the ball inside fair territory and tries to make the throw to first, but the runner is running inside the line (fair territory) toward first. The first baseman's view is obstructed by the runner and is not able to make the catch.

    I know what I was taught as a player, but was amazed at the number of people I asked who didn't know the proper play for the catcher to make or the actual rule that applies. I was especially surprised that the umpire calling the game didn't know the rule.
    First off, as a catcher I was told to peg him as hard as I could right in the middle of his back. :icon_wink: A lot of coaches just can't coach their kids to hit someone, but if it's in the rules of the game, then there is no rule against it.

    Second, if this was a Little League/Dixie thing, then I'm not really surprised. The Umpires are almost always self taught and tend to ignore lots of rules. When I was calling ball with my dad, we had several guys that had never even PLAYED baseball before come up and accept the challenge of being an Umpire. We set up several training classes for these new guys, but since we couldn't pay them for these classes, only one or two guys would show up. We asked them to come watch us when they didn't have a game themselves, and they didn't. I tried to help them as much as I could, but had some hard-headed guys that only looked for the next paycheck and not what they could learn for huge paychecks down the road. A few years ago, I was getting as much as $60 a game for a 2 hour game. Now I haven't called a game in almost 3 years and I got a call a few weeks ago from a guy that was new to the area. He said that he was taking over S'port LL and that he heard my name from about 6 different people telling him that I was a great young umpire. At that time I was on evening shift so I couldn't help him, but he was offering me $30 a game in 11-12 year old baseball to come and work for him. If you take the time and learn how to do it, you can make some good money.


    Ok, on to the ruling:
    6.05
    A batter is out when --
    (i) After hitting or bunting a foul ball, he intentionally deflects the course of the ball in any manner while running to first base. The ball is dead and no runners may advance;
    (k) In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of) the foul line, and in the umpire’s judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he may run outside (to the right of) the threefoot line or inside (to the left of) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;
    Rule 6.05(k) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter- runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines marking the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three-foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.
    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    The runner should be out.

    Another rules question. Man on first with less than 2 outs. A ground ball is hit to short and the double play is attempted. Does the runner going to second have to slide? If he does not slide and the throw from second to first hits the runner, is the runner and the batter out?
    Or, is just the runner out and the batter gets first base?
    Once again, what league is this?? In the MLB he must be able to reach the bag. They are also smart enough to slide, because if they go in standing, they take the chance of getting a ball in the face. In LL, it never is stated that your MUST slide (unless it's a local rule), but does state that you must aviod contact.


    You cannot do anything to anyone to intentionally disrupt the play beyond taking your base. They get away with some of it because you are not TECHnically out until the Umpire makes the signal or verbally calls you out, so alot of the continuing into the bag is forgiven for this reason.
    Rule 7.09
    It is interference by a batter or a runner when --
    (d) Any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;
    Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.
    (e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner.
    (f) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    I'll take a stab...Interesting

    Does the runner have to slide? I don't think he has to slide, but he can't make an attempt to obstruct the throw to 1st. I'm pretty sure that he has to make an attempt to avoid the throw. Now the runner who was already out was called for interference. I'm guessing that the batter would be called out due to the interference.

    BTW, they never call this one in MLB. The slide area in MLB is closer to 8ft. than 6ft..
    You got part of it right and part of it not. If the Umpire has already signalled a runner out and he gets called for Interference, then the Batter takes the punishment and is called out on the runners expense.
    Quote Originally Posted by TulsaDawg View Post
    You're interpretation is what I have always thought, too. The reason I bring it up is that a high school umpire once told me the batter is not out if the throw from second to first hits the runner.
    TECHnically, he's correct, however if he is out and does something to deliberatly interfere, then the batter should be called out.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddawg View Post
    It is a judgement call for the umpire to make. I was taught as a catcher to try to hit the runner with the ball to remove any doubt as to the runner actually interfering. If the runner was in fair territory then they would be out. Otherwise if they are on the line or inside the three foot box (that Haughtondawg described) then they would be safe.

    In the case I described the umpire should have recognized that the runner was interfering and in fair territory (not inside the three ft area), but had the catcher hit the runner with the ball then there would not have been a question. Tulsa you are partially correct, except that any umpire worth his salt should always be ready to make this call in bunting situations and the "judgement" would not be so hard to arrive at.
    Umpiring is pretty hard thing to do and sometimes there are several things that you're suppose to be paying attention to all at one time. Was there a runner coming home as well?? If someone is coming home and the pitcher is running towards the plate, then you have to watch the ball, the pitcher, and the runner. It can be pretty tricky if you are out of position. If there wasn't another runner that he was responsible for, then he should have been watching this and/or at least discussed it with the base umpire to see what he saw.

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by DocMarvin362 View Post
    First off, as a catcher I was told to peg him as hard as I could right in the middle of his back. :icon_wink: ...if it's in the rules of the game, then there is no rule against it.
    I don't believe that's true. I was told by someone close to me, who loves baseball, that the reason he doesn't really get into football is because the intention of the game is to hurt someone. He said that it's not like that in baseball, but now I see a special on Fox Sports about pitchers intentionally hitting batters and now catchers being taught to hit runners in the back. Hmmm, doesn't seem like a non-violent sport to me.

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    Re: Rules question

    It's not just LL umps that make bad calls. I remembered this and found the specifics on the internet......

    1978 World Series Game 4 in the Bronx. Dodgers are up 2-1 in games and ahead 3-1 with one out in the sixth.

    A ground ball is hit, looking like a sure inning ending double play. Russell takes the throw at second to force Reggie Jackson and......

    hits Jackson in the hip with the throw going to first. Ball bounds into left field. A runner scores. Yanks tie the game in the 8th and win in the 10th.

    Dodgers go down in six.

    You can make a case that Jackson "jutted" his hip out to stop the throw. The umps blew this call, big time.

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    Re: Rules question

    Quote Originally Posted by DJDAWG View Post
    It's not just LL umps that make bad calls. I remembered this and found the specifics on the internet......

    1978 World Series Game 4 in the Bronx. Dodgers are up 2-1 in games and ahead 3-1 with one out in the sixth.

    A ground ball is hit, looking like a sure inning ending double play. Russell takes the throw at second to force Reggie Jackson and......

    hits Jackson in the hip with the throw going to first. Ball bounds into left field. A runner scores. Yanks tie the game in the 8th and win in the 10th.

    Dodgers go down in six.

    You can make a case that Jackson "jutted" his hip out to stop the throw. The umps blew this call, big time.
    Humm. There is not an umpire in the world that gets all the calls right. Also, I think that there is a difference in a BAD call, and a WRONG call.

    As for your situation above, shame on the fielder for throwing the ball low enough to hit Reggie in the HIP.

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