The Bible......

[T_Won]

He was joking T. That's why those two smilies were winking at ya. It wasn't cuz Spinoza likes you.

OK thanks. Now I see the winks. You never know what some of these guys will pull out with their revisionist history. I've heard stranger things.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

OK thanks. Now I see the winks. You never know what some of these guys will pull out with their revisionist history. I've heard stranger things.

Like somebody did with Replacement Theology which is totally wrong.

http://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

[TYLERTECHSAS]

[quote=T_Won]
Originally Posted by T_Won
OK thanks. Now I see the winks. You never know what some of these guys will pull out with their revisionist history. I've heard stranger things. [quote/T_Won]


Like somebody did with introducing Replacement Theology on here a few weeks/days back which is totally wrong?

http://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm
__________________

[T_Won]

Like somebody did with Replacement Theology which is totally wrong.

http://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

I was just thinking about this the other day. The amazing thing is that it was completely logical before 1948, becuase there was no Israel from 70 to 1948. Can you imagine reading the Bible before 1948 and reading all the promises to "Israel" and there was no Israel? You would have to assume the church replaced Israel. Same thing with Babylon... God says He is going to destroy Babylon in the end days, and there is no Babylon right now. My money is on Babylon being reformed sometime soon.

[fanfromafar]

Oh, I don't know, I just read the entire thread and found it both interesting and entertaining.

Q for ffaf: Would you be so interested in following the techsters if they didn't have any gay members on the team ?? (e.g., if all the players were straight Christians ??)

TIA for your honest answer. :icon_wink:

No, I would absolutely cheer against both the Techsters and Bulldogs if they were mostly straight and Christian. The only reason I'm a fan is because both the football team and Techsters are mostly Jewish and gay. Where do you think "Rah rah ramma jamma" came from...it's Yiddish. :icon_wink:

[TYLERTECHSAS]

I was just thinking about this the other day. The amazing thing is that it was completely logical before 1948, becuase there was no Israel from 70 to 1948. Can you imagine reading the Bible before 1948 and reading all the promises to "Israel" and there was no Israel? You would have to assume the church replaced Israel. Same thing with Babylon... God says He is going to destroy Babylon in the end days, and there is no Babylon right now. My money is on Babylon being reformed sometime soon.

Exactly!

[Bigdog13]

No, I would absolutely cheer against both the Techsters and Bulldogs if they were mostly straight and Christian. The only reason I'm a fan is because both the football team and Techsters are mostly Jewish and gay. Where do you think "Rah rah ramma jamma" came from...it's Yiddish. :icon_wink:

Thank-you for your honesty.

[Spinoza]

as i said, the entire new testament, and by extension the Christian faith, makes no sense without the context of the old testament. Christ used scriptures frequently in his teachings, because the old testament IS his teachings. perhaps you could give a good reason NOT to include the old testament in the Christian Bible?

But why does it seemingly make no sense......
Without the context of the Old Testament?

Have you ever considered the following?

1) Both the Old Testament and the New Testament were written by men who were Jewish. Mere human beings who were understandably tied at both their theological and psychological hips to centuries of Judaism.

2) What percentage of the Christain Bible in your home was authored by individuals who had the opportunity to actually know Christ, and learn THEIR Cristianity directly from HIS WORDS?

3) Do you assume for some reason (in your seldom humble opinion) that EACH AND EVERY ONE of these Biblical authors somehow GOT EVERYTHING EXACTLY RIGHT...... Despite the obvious human capacity for bias and error?

4) And what of all the other ancient authors who penned equally extensive works regarding Christ and Christianity, but were blue-penciled OUT of the Christian Bible by individuals who were even more remote from Christ's actual footsteps on earth?

5) Are you aware of WHO selected the words (and omitted others) for your Christian Bible...... And When and Why?

6) And how do you account for the reality, that even in our most modern to date era of mass communication, historical perspective and "refined" learning...... MULTIPLE bibles still exist for the convenience of various christian sects?

How do you KNOW with any degree of human certainty that "Christ used (Judaic) scriptures frequently in his teachings"?

How have you become convinced that the Old Testament "IS" the teachings of Christ?

And please understand......
It bothers me not in the least if you have become either certain and/or convinved of anything regarding your Bible and the Old Testament.

I respect your seldom humble opinion because I respect your capacity for tolerance.

BTW......
7) Does it bother you, in any manner, that NO universal Old Testament consensus exists in Judaism?

Cheers.

[johnnylightnin]

3) Do you assume for some reason (in your seldom humble opinion) that EACH AND EVERY ONE of these Biblical authors somehow GOT EVERYTHING EXACTLY RIGHT...... Despite the obvious human capacity for bias and error?

I won't answer for Bob, but my answer is, yes. I do believe that the autographs (originals...which no longer exist) were absolutely correct. I understand that this may seem crazy to a non-Believer, but is it any crazier than creation ex nihilo? Honestly, if you can make it past Genesis 1:1, an inerrant and divinely inspired Scripture is no obstacle. Have there been errors, additions, deletions, ect. since then? Of course...which is why textual criticism is so vital to the faith.

[Spinoza]

as i said, the entire new testament, and by extension the Christian faith, makes no sense without the context of the old testament. Christ used scriptures frequently in his teachings, because the old testament IS his teachings. perhaps you could give a good reason NOT to include the old testament in the Christian Bible?

Regarding your last sentence (question) in the above post......
YES!
But I shall assume that it is "a good reason" only for me.

When I first seriously read and studied and QUESTIONED the New Testament, ever so long ago......
I was not impressed with the sequence of any of the individual words.
Mere chapter and verse never quenched any personal hunger or thirst for me.
But I was deeply moved by the woven fabric of ideals that seemed evident throughout the gist of the New Testament, and this appealed to me as the obvious message of an uncomplicated and TOLERANT Christ.
It eventually mattered not to me if Christ was a God or not a god.
It only mattered that Christ...... Despite christianity...... Had authored a western philosophy that soothed my subjective bias.

I may be only the echo of a voice crying in a wilderness dominated by esteemed theologians, and all too often intolerant "Christians"......
BUT DAMN IT THEN AND NOW......
I simply cannot fathom how the Christ of the New Testament could ever be confused, or remotely and theologically associated with the Yahweh of Judaism.

Until later.
Cheers.

[arkansasbob]

But why does it seemingly make no sense......
Without the context of the Old Testament?

Have you ever considered the following?

1) Both the Old Testament and the New Testament were written by men who were Jewish. Mere human beings who were understandably tied at both their theological and psychological hips to centuries of Judaism.

2) What percentage of the Christain Bible in your home was authored by individuals who had the opportunity to actually know Christ, and learn THEIR Cristianity directly from HIS WORDS?

3) Do you assume for some reason (in your seldom humble opinion) that EACH AND EVERY ONE of these Biblical authors somehow GOT EVERYTHING EXACTLY RIGHT...... Despite the obvious human capacity for bias and error?

4) And what of all the other ancient authors who penned equally extensive works regarding Christ and Christianity, but were blue-penciled OUT of the Christian Bible by individuals who were even more remote from Christ's actual footsteps on earth?

5) Are you aware of WHO selected the words (and omitted others) for your Christian Bible...... And When and Why?

6) And how do you account for the reality, that even in our most modern to date era of mass communication, historical perspective and "refined" learning...... MULTIPLE bibles still exist for the convenience of various christian sects?

How do you KNOW with any degree of human certainty that "Christ used (Judaic) scriptures frequently in his teachings"?

How have you become convinced that the Old Testament "IS" the teachings of Christ?

And please understand......
It bothers me not in the least if you have become either certain and/or convinved of anything regarding your Bible and the Old Testament.

I respect your seldom humble opinion because I respect your capacity for tolerance.

BTW......
7) Does it bother you, in any manner, that NO universal Old Testament consensus exists in Judaism?

Cheers.

when i originally replied to this thread, i knew i didn't have time to get into a deep debate. the plan (if you can call it that) was to throw in my tuppence and then quietly ease out of the room. i should have known better. and seeing as i have invested at least six bits to date, i will try to continue as i have time.

1) i believe in divine inspiration. in other words, the authors wrote what God told them to write. why do you think that the authors' jewishness matters?

2) 100%. see answer above.

3) see above.

i will have to come back for answers 4-6 when i have more time. in the mean time, i defer to any bible scholars (any of whom are no doubt much more knowledgeable than myself on this subject) who might want to explain the significant differences between the books that were chosen for the canon and those that were not, along with the reasons for their selection.

7) not one bit. i am not a jew.


i have been trying to figure out why you would want to separate Jesus from the old testament (and any words of his that claim that he is the messiah of the old testament or any other religious-sounding stuff). the only reason i can think of, and please correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sure you will), is that you find it hard to believe that the same person who said those things could also be the person saying many of the obviously wise sayings attributed to Christ. my question to you is: are there any accounts of Christs' life (written within a reasonable time of his death) that support your assumption?

[arkansasbob]

Regarding your last sentence (question) in the above post......
YES!
But I shall assume that it is "a good reason" only for me.

When I first seriously read and studied and QUESTIONED the New Testament, ever so long ago......
I was not impressed with the sequence of any of the individual words.
Mere chapter and verse never quenched any personal hunger or thirst for me.
But I was deeply moved by the woven fabric of ideals that seemed evident throughout the gist of the New Testament, and this appealed to me as the obvious message of an uncomplicated and TOLERANT Christ.
It eventually mattered not to me if Christ was a God or not a god.
It only mattered that Christ...... Despite christianity...... Had authored a western philosophy that soothed my subjective bias.

I may be only the echo of a voice crying in a wilderness dominated by esteemed theologians, and all too often intolerant "Christians"......
BUT DAMN IT THEN AND NOW......
I simply cannot fathom how the Christ of the New Testament could ever be confused, or remotely and theologically associated with the Yahweh of Judaism.

Until later.
Cheers.

that confirms my assumption above, but what say you to my last question? is your hunch based on an actual account of the life of Christ that has filtered down through history, or merely your own desire to make Jesus what you want him to be?

[TYLERTECHSAS]

When I first seriously read and studied and QUESTIONED the New Testament, ever so long ago......
I was not impressed with the sequence of any of the individual words.
Mere chapter and verse never quenched any personal hunger or thirst for me.
But I was deeply moved by the woven fabric of ideals that seemed evident throughout the gist of the New Testament, and this appealed to me as the obvious message of an uncomplicated and TOLERANT Christ.
It eventually mattered not to me if Christ was a God or not a god.

I may be only the echo of a voice crying in a wilderness dominated by esteemed theologians, and all too often intolerant "Christians"......
BUT DAMN IT THEN AND NOW......
I simply cannot fathom how the Christ of the New Testament could ever be confused, or remotely and theologically associated with the Yahweh of Judaism.

Until later.
Cheers.

I sounds as if you really need to read the NT again. Because from your above post it appears as if you never picked it up to even scan. Sorry but that is JMHO.

Cheers

[Bigdog13]

Regarding your last sentence (question) in the above post......
YES!
But I shall assume that it is "a good reason" only for me.

When I first seriously read and studied and QUESTIONED the New Testament, ever so long ago......
I was not impressed with the sequence of any of the individual words.
Mere chapter and verse never quenched any personal hunger or thirst for me.
But I was deeply moved by the woven fabric of ideals that seemed evident throughout the gist of the New Testament, and this appealed to me as the obvious message of an uncomplicated and TOLERANT Christ.
It eventually mattered not to me if Christ was a God or not a god.
It only mattered that Christ...... Despite christianity...... Had authored a western philosophy that soothed my subjective bias.

I may be only the echo of a voice crying in a wilderness dominated by esteemed theologians, and all too often intolerant "Christians"......
BUT DAMN IT THEN AND NOW......
I simply cannot fathom how the Christ of the New Testament could ever be confused, or remotely and theologically associated with the Yahweh of Judaism.

Until later.
Cheers.

You mean except where he said he was.

[GonzoDawg]

I can describe air.

Could you describe life please? What does it mean to be alive?