The Bible......

[saltydawg]

Thanks but I have a book of his writings and have read it.

"Josephus - The Essential Writings"
A translation by Paul L. Maier


You should pick it up and read it sometime. It sure beats wikipedia

I might just do that.

[Dirtydawg]

Not at all, DD, it's just that maybe Josephus was reading the Gospels while he was writing his history. It's like a lot of things at that time. A lot of sub-plots and intrigues.

How would that be possible if the Gospels weren't written until you said they were?

[saltydawg]

How would that be possible if the Gospels weren't written until you said they were?

Josephus wrote his histories in 94 AD. Mark was probably written 75 to 80 AD.

Anyway, a number of observers think Josephus reference to Jesus was added later by copyists. That's one of the problems with these old documents. Just imagine if people could edit your posts here over the next 200 years. One could make you sound like a Klinton loving liberal in no time at all.

[drumlogic37]

No surprise there.

Saw Godzilla on TV last night. How do I know that that is not a true story?

First, I don't know of anyone who actually thinks that Godzilla is a true story. The

Second, there would be plenty of eye witnesses who say that there was never a giant lizard that attacked Japan. (To which you may respond: the resurrection stories came 100 years after Jesus' life, and therefore, there would be no eye witnesses to refute the mythical stories of Jesus. However, this fails because even by most liberal standards the Gospels are written within the life time of people who were alive when Jesus was actually around. There is not enough time for a fabrication of this sort to arise without some backlash to the claims of the Gospels.)

Third, given the criteria for historically accurate writing the NT is on par or far exceeds the writings of antiquity. So, if you do not have a anti-supernatural bias, then there are no reasons to not accept that the events in the Gospels do not actually happen. One the other hand, Godzilla does not meet these requirements.

This brings me back to the same point that I keep going to. Let's talk about the existence of God and the possiblilty of miracles. Your not going to accept the Gospels a priori because you have already decided that miracles to not happen. And because they do not happen, then when the Bible speaks of them they must be fabrications of later religious zealots.

[drumlogic37]

No surprise there.

Saw Godzilla on TV last night. How do I know that that is not a true story?

Further, this does not demonstrate anything. This is a red herring.

[drumlogic37]

We know we are in the desert because we can feel that the soil is sandy,rocky with no grass, the wind is hot and dry, and the overhead Sun is baking us. We feel the temperature is extremely hot, we are dying for a drink of ice-cold water.

Everybody knows that the desert has a few oasis scattered about. However, we really don't know if there IS an oasis in the desert we find ourselves in, just that we have no choice but to search for one.

What? This is just all cliche. Yet another informal logical fallacy.

[drumlogic37]

Conceptualization will never lead to spiritual knowledge.. What is true in the New Testament for one person may be false to another.

What definition of truth are you working off of here?

[Bigdog13]

What definition of truth are you working off of here?

That use of the term sounded like relativism which I don't believe in.

It's either true or it's not. There is no true for some people and not for others. There is no gray area. Even if we don't know if something is true or not that doesn't mean it's it's gray it only means we don't know.

[TYLERTECHSAS]

Since the stories about Jesus are mostly fiction, why should we accept the story about Him predicting something as accurate?

Then why are you on this Bible Thread? Seriously. The OT's main reason is to point to a coming Messiah (Christ) and the NT is all about Christ and His life. And both are full of prophecy in and around both of these subjects as well as the Jewish nation and end times prophecy. Again, you've posted enough in this thread to make most of us ask why are you here? Or is the Holy Spirit working on you and you just don't want to admit it?

[saltydawg]

Then why are you on this Bible Thread? Seriously. The OT's main reason is to point to a coming Messiah (Christ) and the NT is all about Christ and His life. And both are full of prophecy in and around both of these subjects as well as the Jewish nation and end times prophecy. Again, you've posted enough in this thread to make most of us ask why are you here? Or is the Holy Spirit working on you and you just don't want to admit it?

I ordered a book of Josephus' writings. Not the one you have but another one. I decided not to get the one by Paul L. Maier when I saw he also wrote "Guide to Creation."

Anyway, to answer your questions. The Bible is the most published book in the world (or so I remember) which makes it a book worth discussing. Besides, one can be a follower of Jesus without being a Christian. Jesus denied that He was the Messiah, and the Jews don't accept him as such.

I like the idea of Holy Spirit.......is that some whiskey distilled and blessed by Irish Priests? You see, I think that any religion worth its salt should have a sense of humor.

Nobody *owns* the Bible.

[Spinoza]

First, I don't know of anyone who actually thinks that Godzilla is a true story. The

Second, there would be plenty of eye witnesses who say that there was never a giant lizard that attacked Japan. (To which you may respond: the resurrection stories came 100 years after Jesus' life, and therefore, there would be no eye witnesses to refute the mythical stories of Jesus. However, this fails because even by most liberal standards the Gospels are written within the life time of people who were alive when Jesus was actually around. There is not enough time for a fabrication of this sort to arise without some backlash to the claims of the Gospels.)

Third, given the criteria for historically accurate writing the NT is on par or far exceeds the writings of antiquity. So, if you do not have a anti-supernatural bias, then there are no reasons to not accept that the events in the Gospels do not actually happen. One the other hand, Godzilla does not meet these requirements.

This brings me back to the same point that I keep going to. Let's talk about the existence of God and the possiblilty of miracles. Your not going to accept the Gospels a priori because you have already decided that miracles to not happen. And because they do not happen, then when the Bible speaks of them they must be fabrications of later religious zealots.

If you are in search of......
"plenty of eyewitnesses"......
Who have written their sincere SUBJECTIVE "Gospels"......
"within the life time of people who were actually around when (he) was actually around......
"on a par" with or by a standard that "far exceeds the writings of antiquity"......

May I suggest......
That you use your self-proclaimed leaning toward logic to peruse the THOUSANDS of missives on this most interesting message board, and READ the various GOSPELS of the many dawg disciples who once (or still) adored little george as a modern messiah of evangelical-conservative-republican BELIEF/commander in chief!

While I realize that no little george ZEALOT has ever tried to suggest that little george WALKED ON WATER to board the aircraft carrier where he proclaimed his "mission accomplished" MIRACLE......
The HISTORY of this board remains RIFE WITH EVIDENCE regarding the scents of psychology that SPUR the little grey cells of SUBJECTIVE "certainty" forward......
Be they POSSIBLY RATIONAL......
No longer seemingly RATIONAL......
Or nothing but a stubborn refusal to recognize FAITH without REASON.

I UNDERSTAND why little george worshipers now prefer to grasp at any fiscally resposible/surge straw possible amid "plenty of witnesses"......
But I do not UNDERSTAND why Christians of FAITH bother with me......
Or pretend to grapple with Godzilla to PROVE their GOD.

[saltydawg]

First, I don't know of anyone who actually thinks that Godzilla is a true story. The

Second, there would be plenty of eye witnesses who say that there was never a giant lizard that attacked Japan. (To which you may respond: the resurrection stories came 100 years after Jesus' life, and therefore, there would be no eye witnesses to refute the mythical stories of Jesus. However, this fails because even by most liberal standards the Gospels are written within the life time of people who were alive when Jesus was actually around. There is not enough time for a fabrication of this sort to arise without some backlash to the claims of the Gospels.)

Third, given the criteria for historically accurate writing the NT is on par or far exceeds the writings of antiquity. So, if you do not have a anti-supernatural bias, then there are no reasons to not accept that the events in the Gospels do not actually happen. One the other hand, Godzilla does not meet these requirements.

This brings me back to the same point that I keep going to. Let's talk about the existence of God and the possiblilty of miracles. Your not going to accept the Gospels a priori because you have already decided that miracles to not happen. And because they do not happen, then when the Bible speaks of them they must be fabrications of later religious zealots.

If we assume the existence of God, what makes you think God would perform miracles here on Earth? Isn't our own existence enough of a miracle to the most devoted worshiper? Or is our faith in God so weak that we need more proof beyond the Sun, Moon, and infinite shiny stars?

Imagine a world where everyone believes Godzilla is alive and well in the Sea of Japan .......except you.

[Spinoza]

I ordered a book of Josephus' writings. Not the one you have but another one. I decided not to get the one by Paul L. Maier when I saw he also wrote "Guide to Creation."

Anyway, to answer your questions. The Bible is the most published book in the world (or so I remember) which makes it a book worth discussing. Besides, one can be a follower of Jesus without being a Christian. Jesus denied that He was the Messiah, and the Jews don't accept him as such.

I like the idea of Holy Spirit.......is that some whiskey distilled and blessed by Irish Priests? You see, I think that any religion worth its salt should have a sense of humor.

Nobody *owns* the Bible.

"Nobody *owns* the Bible"......
What a truly unique concept for ALL Christian consideration.

I wonder how many "Christians" on this board would be IMMEDIATELY willing to stand proudly on any alter of Christ and proclaim that neither THEY nor their chosen/preferred Christian sect OWNS THE BIBLE?

Seems simple enough......
How about 30 righteous words or less?

I hereby state that I am a Christian, but I avow that niether I nor ________, my Christian sect of choice, claim any ownership of THE BIBLE.

Keep shaking the salt, Salty......
Imagine life without salt!

Cheers and good night.

[drumlogic37]

If we assume the existence of God, what makes you think God would perform miracles here on Earth? Isn't our own existence enough of a miracle to the most devoted worshiper? Or is our faith in God so weak that we need more proof beyond the Sun, Moon, and infinite shiny stars?

Imagine a world where everyone believes Godzilla is alive and well in the Sea of Japan .......except you.

I don't know why he has chosen to do miracles. All i'm saying is that if God exists, then that is sufficient for there to be the possiblity of them. Whether they have been done or not is a different question. But I'll answer that question too. I believe they have been done because it is the best explination for the events that are explained in the Bible.

Further, miracles aren't proof for the existence of God, because in a worldview that excludes God the miracles are explained by some unknown phenomena or delusion of some sort. Miracles are to establish the authority of someone giving a message. Faith in the miracle that Christ died and rose from the dead and by that our sins are forgiven is the plan of salvation that is set forth in the Bible. It has nothing to do with me actually having "faith" that God exists. In fact, I don't hold that the existence of God is a fact that is held one faith. I think the existence of God can be known in the true sense of the word, that is, the existence of God is demontrable (Alright you objectivists, we can start on this later. I want to focus on this for the time being).

Ok, I'm imagining (even though this is a hypothesis contrary to fact). Ok, in this world I'm going to do some investigation . If my investigation leads to it being possible and likely that Godzilla exists, then I'm staying away from Japan.

This would be a good place to bring up Lessings Ditch and then go into what Faith is. Perhaps after this discussion dies out we can go on to that.

[Dirtydawg]

"Nobody *owns* the Bible"......
What a truly unique concept for ALL Christian consideration.

I wonder how many "Christians" on this board would be IMMEDIATELY willing to stand proudly on any alter of Christ and proclaim that neither THEY nor their chosen/preferred Christian sect OWNS THE BIBLE?

Seems simple enough......
How about 30 righteous words or less?

I hereby state that I am a Christian, but I avow that niether I nor ________, my Christian sect of choice, claim any ownership of THE BIBLE.

Keep shaking the salt, Salty......
Imagine life without salt!

Cheers and good night.

You've made some pretty good and thoughtful points in the past, Spin, but on this one, I feel you are way off the mark. I've known many Christians who claim that their denomination holds certain and unique characteristics that are essential to salvation, however, in 41 years, I've never met any Christian who claims that his particular denomination OWNS the Bible.