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Well, if inspiration guarantees inerrancy, then the Bible is UNEQUIVOCALLY free from error.Originally Posted by Guisslapp
I don't know how it works, but inspiration guarantees inerrancy.
Therefore, the Bible is UNEQUIVOCALLY free from error.
I don't understand how it works, but it's not illogical. It's on the same level as the Trinity--cannot be understood, but it is not a contradiction.
Is this an argument?
It seems to be an illicit jump to go from "there is no proof or no proof is offered" to "therefore, the Bible is not authoritative."
Also, I never gave proof for the Bible "comes from God." I'll do that for you later.
What?
That is a mighty big IF. How do you know inspiration guarantees inerrancy? It seems counterintuitive to me. How can you support such an assumption?
Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
“It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”
Well, 2 Tim. 3:16 says that scripture is God breathed. I'm working on the assumption that whatever comes from God is perfect. The scriptures came from God. Therefore, the scriptures are perfect. This means that only the original autographs are necessarily perfect. So, now I have to show that the copies are reliable.
How does "God breathed" mean inspired, then?
Jordan Mills on choosing Tech:
“It’s a great experience seeing them play. It was a good atmosphere. The fans stood up the whole game and never sat down. They have a great fan base.”
Only things that do not come from God can be imperfect?
"Is this an argument?"......
You tell me, MR. LOGIC!
The "soul" of my very simple syllogism only pretends to court reason if one PRESUMES AS TRUE what you so pompously proffered a priori.
But if you would prefer to discuss any alleged "illicit jump" on my part......
Fine with me!
As long as YOU are prepared to PROVE YOUR ILLOGICAL LEAP to an unknown GOD BIBLE......
From a more than well documented and historically corrupt MAN bible.
SIMPLY PROVE YOUR GOD EXISTS...... And I'll concede HIS ability to author and edit YOUR Christian Bible at HIS whim, and in your own image and likeness
But absent any such PROOF......
Bother me not with YOUR LAME LOGIC, where YOUR FERVENT FAITH should zealously suffice.
I'll tell YOU quite frankly......
It never ceases to amaze me that so many Christians seemingly NEED to grasp at and cling to MAN-LOGIC...... If only FAITH supposedly matters during their brief sojourn to salvation.
------------------------------------
Also, I never gave proof for the Bible "comes from God." I'll do that later......
Anytime YOU'RE ready Mr. Logic!
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said...... But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
UNLESS GOD IS IMPERFECT......!
The PERFECTION of the Christian God is a theory created by MERE MEN who once proudly walked about their FLAT EARTH, and observed their SUN circling their tiny planet.
If the Old Testament God of the Jews IS INDEED the New Testament Christ of Christians......
I can only conclude (back to the original thread topic) that any such GOD intentionally limited man's ability to recognize "PERFECTION".
BUT WHY MUST ANY GOD BE PERFECT?
good night.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said...... But I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Sort of. The concept is called progressive revelation. This is why the writers of the OT and the writers of the NT seem to (and, if the concept is correct, they DO) view God from a different vantage point.
Why God choses to do the things he does are often beyond my ability to grasp. Sometimes he tells us in Scripture why He does one thing or another, but that's not always the case. Theodicies are good for apologetics, but they can make for some very sketchy doctrine.
Spin, have you ever heard of a philosophy professor from Notre Dame named Plantinga. He makes my brain hurt, but I figure you might enjoy his writing. He doesn't (at least in what I've read) propose to prove one thing or another. His aim is to "defeat" the "defeaters" of those who attack theism. He's very well respected in the field by those who agree and disagree with him alike.
I think he might by right up your alley.
Here's a site with some links to a few of his papers: http://philofreligion.homestead.com/plantingapage.html
I don't necessarily buy his epistemology, but it's interesting reading none the less.
Last edited by johnnylightnin; 04-09-2008 at 05:46 AM.
Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle
Wow the things you can get from an internet message board. As sad as it is that we all find so much entertainment from such a complete waste of time, I still cannot keep myself from reading. There will never be any scientific proof of God. Some will conclude that God does not exist. I understand your doubt. We, even the strongest in our faith have from time to time doubts. Thomas was a skeptic and he lived with Christ. As a Catholic, and I don't know if I am the only one represented here so I hope I don't offend my Protestant brothers the Bible is not our only source of liturgy. While the bible is extremely important we have more than that to rely on. For more information I suggest that you read the teachings of the early church fathers. As far as the divine inspiration of the Bible I don't think we can prove that either, no more than I can prove that the compete works of Shakespeare were composed by a single individual. The only evidence I have is though my own experience and the amazing complexity and inspirational text. I know a frogs hairs worth of scripture in real depth. That that I know amazes me in it's ability to be both historically relevant and relevant to my life today. What those of you choose to believe or not believe is what is not what is relevant to me in any way other than I pray for your souls. You can have your truth I do not dispute it, but at the end of the day I will not let you take mine. I feel the Holy Spirit surging through me, and how you choose to believe cannot change that.
Not to butt in Spin, but you seem to imply that faith and logic are mutually exclusive. I would submit that God gave mankind the capacity to reason for the purpose of better understanding Him. Faith comes first, to be sure. But logic can be a useful supplement.
You are correct that FAITH is all that's needed for salvation through Christ. But this doesnt mean it has to be a BLIND faith. Evidence abounds for God's existence and for Jesus's claims that He is the only Way: in creation, in Scripture, and in the course of human history. But as long as you are unwilling to acknowledge the evidence within your own conscience, it is unlikely you're going to respond to external evidence.
For the believer, faith and logic prove God again and again. Seemingly disparate elements of life and the world begin to make sense as the Christian slowly gains God's perspective through prayer, worship, and study. It is a long, arduous endeavor. And totally worth it. Solomon said that this search for wisdom is a far better investment that any human wealth.
This kind of logic (wisdom, God's logic) is supremely rational, and in many ways, disarmingly simple. But it can only be accessed by faith. Faith comes first. Proof follows. Give your life to Jesus and He will prove Himself to you in so many ways it will make your head spin.
Fortunately, God freely gives both faith and wisdom to anyone who asks. Are you interested yet Spin?
I, finally, agree with you on something. I don't understand a Christian's need to try to sell their faith logically (and I've been guilty of this) to others. Mainly because others won't accept the Christian's logic.
I view it in a different light. It's not a sales pitch, it's a defense. Christian logic doesn't diverge from regular logic. The "father of logic" was a theist (of sorts). Some of the most influential fathers of the church have been accomplished logicians like Aquinas and Augustine.
Time is your friend. Impulse is your enemy. -John Bogle
Potato/Potatoe. It's the same thing. Either way, the non-Christian who's seriously a non-Christian doesn't accept Christian logic.
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